The Last Stand

[decaro]

I just read Nathaniel Philbrick's book by the same name and noted the following concerning Custer's subordinates:

That after three successive nights of little or no sleep, exhaustion may have been for Benteen what whiskey was for Reno.

Opinions?

[sullafelix]

Some Indians said the cavalry and their horses were so tired they were shaking.

I do not put any blame on Custer's subordinates. It seems strange that no one gave any kudos to Benteen and Reno for saving most of their troops. While not many have blamed Custer for losing all of his.

Libby Custer did a total whitewash job on them.

Her husbands desperate need of a victory to make him a political candidate caused the entire debacle.

Custer was used to Indians running and not really fighting back. He expected another Washita.

The Fetterman disaster is just a Little Big Horn on a smaller scale. The reasons for both, except for Custerr's political ambition, are exactly the same, Hubris.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: sulla05

Some Indians said the cavalry and their horses were so tired they were shaking.

I do not put any blame on Custer's subordinates. It seems strange that no one gave any kudos to Benteen and Reno for saving most of their troops. While not many have blamed Custer for losing all of his.

Libby Custer did a total whitewash job on them.

Her husbands desperate need of a victory to make him a political candidate caused the entire debacle.

Custer was used to Indians running and not really fighting back. He expected another Washita.

The Fetterman disaster is just a Little Big Horn on a smaller scale. The reasons for both, except for Custerr's political ambition, are exactly the same, Hubris.

Fetterman was explicitly ordered not to leave sight of the fort, but Custer's orders were more flexible. In any case, they both hurried to their destruction.

Benteen also thought it was another Washita -- he thought Custer had abandoned both him and Reno just as he thought Custer had abandoned Maj. Elliot.

Libby whitewashed her husband's reputation while Wild Bill's show perpetuated the myth of the Last Stand. But the military court of inquiry neither condemned or exonerated Reno, who was drunk for most of the battle. Other officers were seen drinking as well.

Custer has been depicted as a hero and as an egotistical madman in 1970's "Little Big Man." His reputation seems to be fashionable to the times.

And the story never gets old. There's always a new book about Custer and this battle.

[sullafelix]

I always thought the Crow scouts getting ready to die was one of the most amazing part of the tale. That is if that part is a actually true.

I don't think any of the white men there had any idea that there were 1500 to 1800 warriors nearby.

Drunk or sober it was a miracle that Reno's command wasn't annihilated.
Actually it is a miracle that all three commands weren't destroyed one after the other.

The other part of the battle that will always be remembered is Crazy Horse's immortal words, whatever history decides they were.

The Indians were much like the Zulus, they did not denigrate their foes when they talked about the battle in later years.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: sulla05

The Indians were much like the Zulus, they did not denigrate their foes when they talked about the battle in later years.

I seem to recall reading this line from an eyewitness account (although web examples of it now have a somewhat different translation):

"And then these cowards threw down their weapons and raised their arms, as if to say 'Sioux, pity us'. But the Sioux had no pity that day. We let our rage guide us, and we killed them all."

[sullafelix]

I have read a ton of accounts about the battle, but never saw that one. I just checked on the web and didn't find it.

There were a lot of legends that grew up also. Like Rain-in-the-Face eating Tom Custer's heart.

He threatened to do it when he was alive, but he didn't go through with the procedure.

It goes along with the story of Custer himself being tortured. I believe some Cheyenne women said they jabbed needles in his ear after he was dead.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: sulla05

The Indians were much like the Zulus, they did not denigrate their foes when they talked about the battle in later years.

I seem to recall reading this line from an eyewitness account (although web examples of it now have a somewhat different translation):

"And then these cowards threw down their weapons and raised their arms, as if to say 'Sioux, pity us'. But the Sioux had no pity that day. We let our rage guide us, and we killed them all."

Although Yellow Nose counted coup with a captured 7th guidon, the other warriors were less forgiving towards helpless soldiers after their women and children's lives were put at risk by Reno's attack on the village. Most warriors were irate about the attack, especially after Sitting Bull told those left in the village -- as most of the other men were out hunting -- to protect their "nest" as would a bird.

Even Moving Robe Woman shot the mortally wounded Isaiah Dorman after the scout pleaded that he would soon be dead anyway.
She replied: "If you didn't want to be killed, why did you leave home to attack us?" or words to that effect.

Dorman's body was later found with his genitals mutilated.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: sulla05

I have read a ton of accounts about the battle, but never saw that one. I just checked on the web and didn't find it.

Try this one:

http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/resourc ... ighorn.htm

It's the account from Lakota chief Red Horse.

It contains this translation of the phrase I referenced:

"these soldiers became foolish, many throwing away their guns and raising their hands, saying, "Sioux, pity us; take us prisoners." The Sioux did not take a single soldier prisoner, but killed all of them; none were left alive for even a few minutes."

[sullafelix]

No offense, but I would not take an Americans translation of Lakota in 1881.

Even at big conferences 'interpreters' couldn't get it right.

Crazy horse himself said that "He would fight until no Nez Perce were left". It was translated as "He would fight until no white men are left".

That mistake or deliberate change led directly to his death.

[sullafelix]

There were some accounts of mutilation, but that was after death not the cause.

The Zulus were accused of the same things for slitting open their opponents bellies. They did it to all dead opponents.

Unfortunately we do not have any real written records from the Indians at the time, and the difference in language was there also.

I am sure many Indians spoke English and many Americans spoke some Indian languages, but the nuances etc. were probably missed.

There are as many Indian verbal accounts about what happened that day as there are American.

Even 'Hoka hey" was attributed to Low Dog in 1881. Just like hurrah after whatever Indian said it first it was probably taken up by others.

The other question of mutilation is small animals , birds etc. Scavengers will move in quickly after a battle.

I remember reading about Belgians cutting out sets of teeth out of the dead and not so dead at Waterloo. I guess there was a market for them.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: sulla05

No offense, but I would not take an Americans translation of Lakota in 1881.

Apparently it wasn't a translation of Lakota. It was a translation of pictographs and sign language. The guy was an expert in it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garrick_Mallery

And his record of it may have been subjected to further modern analysis - perhaps accounting for the differing translations.

[Hotschi]

ORIGINAL: sulla05

The other part of the battle that will always be remembered is Crazy Horse's immortal words, whatever history decides they were.

What were Crazy Horse's immortal words about this battle? I'm curious, as this is a part of history I am indeed interested in - I just don't know which book is a good one for "Starters"...

[sullafelix]

They were supposedly "Today is a good day to die, brave hearts to the front cowards to the rear".

I think "Hoka Hey" is supposed to be "today is a good day to die".

It has been a while since I read a whole book about the period. There are numerous bios of Custer and a few of Crazy Horse. I believe there is even a duel bios of both in one book. It is 'Crazy Horse and Custer' by Stephen Ambrose. I read it when it came out, but that was about 15 years ago.

I first read about Crazy Horse when I was a very little kid. The past fifty years has seen a large change in the depiction and way that American Indians are looked at and remembered.

[radic202]

ORIGINAL: sulla05

No offense, but I would not take an Americans translation of Lakota in 1881.

Even at big conferences 'interpreters' couldn't get it right.

Crazy horse himself said that "He would fight until no Nez Perce were left". It was translated as "He would fight until no white men are left".

That mistake or deliberate change led directly to his death.

I'm curious here (as a French Canadian) "Nez Percé" in French means "Pierced Nose", how does that translate meaning White Man? I know that "langue forchue" meaning "crooked tongue" is often related to the ""white man" for all the lies they were said to say but never heard the comparison to the pierced nose before?

Thanks in advance,

[sullafelix]

After Crazy Horse was on the reservation. The US army approached the Lakota to help them against the Nez Perce and Chief Joseph.

Crazy Horse was very reluctant, but finally agreed, hence his actual quote.

The army interpreter was either wrong(unlikely) or just wanted to stir up trouble.

The army knew that both Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse had to be dealt with somehow. That is why they were both murdered.

[Hotschi]

Thank you sulla05.

[Blond_Knight]

Has anyone tried the HPS game Desperate Glory about Custer and the Battle of the 'Greasy Grass', as the Lakota like to call it?
HPS Desperate Glory

[Grim.Reaper]

ORIGINAL: Blond_Knight

Has anyone tried the HPS game Desperate Glory about Custer and the Battle of the 'Greasy Grass', as the Lakota like to call it?
HPS Desperate Glory

Haven't but you can grab a demo at bottom of this page

http://digitalgameworks.com/index.php/desperate-glory/

[ezzler]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33085031

Waterloo teeth

[conger]

ORIGINAL: Blond_Knight

Has anyone tried the HPS game Desperate Glory about Custer and the Battle of the 'Greasy Grass', as the Lakota like to call it?
HPS Desperate Glory

I have the game and it is fun despite its issues. The good: easy to pick up and play, small AO and unit count (may or may not be good depending on your preferences), and variables to battle setup (Custer brings along 2nd CAV, Custer doesn't divide command, number of Sioux, etc.). The bad: the biggest issue with the game is the Sioux AI. It is rather easy to win as the 7th, just have Reno's battalion press the attack and get Custer's battalion across the Medicine Tail Coulee and attacking settlements ASAP. The Sioux forces will eventually retreat and you'll win. The Sioux AI breaks far too easily, if it pressed the attack it'd win (I played against all three AI settings: balanced, aggressive, and cautious). The game doesn't include the second day of fighting either. Playing as the Sioux becomes a game of how few warriors you can loose in the process of wiping out the 7th; very easy to loose as Sioux, but that requires changing variables all in Custer's favor and lowering your own numbers, 500 is the smallest and 2000 the largest. Overall, I'd suggest at least trying the demo. I consider myself knowledgeable on the topic and think if you're like me, you'll enjoy it; not a lot of Little Bighorn wargames out there.