Training squadrons with 0 or 1 plane

[TulliusDetritus]

Sorry if this was already asked but I can't get the search function to work.

Let's suppose x squadron is a "training" unit. Two scenarios:

1) squadron has 0, 1 or 2 planes only
2) squadron has the maximum number of planes

Will the pilots of 1) and 2) increase their skill/s at the same speed?

Thanks in advance [:)]

[btd64]

No. From my own experience, squadrons with fewer planes will not train as fast as squadrons with a full complement. Also, the search function seems to be having problems lately. Happy gaming....GP

[TulliusDetritus]

Thank you. I forgot this, sorry: "training" units in bases with sufficient aviation support will train faster than units with insufficient aviation support?

[Canoerebel]

My experience is that aircraft squadrons with no aircraft will not train pilots; I haven't paid enough attention to squadrons with a single aircraft; but I have seen many, many squadrons with two aircraft training at full capacity, or so it seems to me. I could give you a screen shot of about ten two-plane squadrons at one of my bases, and all the pilots are training rapidly (showing orange- or green-tinted increments).

Players have probably sandboxed this or kept careful notes, so you might get more informed opinions. But until someone tells me different, two-plane squadrons seem to train at full capacity.

I don't know about the affect of aviation support. Mainly, that's because training seems to take place at bigger, rear-area, well-staffed bases, at least from '43 onwards.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

My experience is that aircraft squadrons with no aircraft will not train pilots; I haven't paid enough attention to squadrons with a single aircraft; but I have seen many, many squadrons with two aircraft training at full capacity, or so it seems to me. I could give you a screen shot of about ten two-plane squadrons at one of my bases, and all the pilots are training rapidly (showing orange- or green-tinted increments).

Players have probably sandboxed this or kept careful notes, so you might get more informed opinions. But until someone tells me different, two-plane squadrons seem to train at full capacity.

I don't know about the affect of aviation support. Mainly, that's because training seems to take place at bigger, rear-area, well-staffed bases, at least from '43 onwards.

The ratio of aircraft to pilots is the key thing, I think. If the sqn. with two aircraft only has a complement of five pilots, it can do a pretty good job of training them. But if it is one of the big squadrons with 33 or more pilots, there are not enough flying hours available to train all the pilots more than a few minutes at a time.

When the pilots are all newbies with low levels of training there will be noticeable progress with just the two aircraft but getting to higher levels will take a looooooong time.

Air support has to be sufficient to keep the aircraft flying but I am not sure it has any direct effect on the training progress of pilots. General Support and Motorized Support squads should impact morale/fatigue, and the skill (Leadership? Admin?) of the squadron's leader should affect training.

[Canoerebel]

That makes sense, BBFanboy.

Most of the two-aircraft training squadrons that I looked at have maximum aircraft levels of 18 or 24. Those, at least, seem to do well with two aircraft. Here's one example (this squadron has had two Corsairs since it arrived on map).

[HansBolter]

Nine pilots got skill gains the day before on those 2 planes.

Not too bad actually.

For the Allies, when dealing with severely limited plane pools in '42, I tend to try to add a few planes to the squadrons that enter with only two.

If you can get an 18 plane Marine squad up to 6 planes the training seems to increase considerably over what you get with only two planes.

I shoot for at least 1/3 to 1/2 capacity on planes for training squadrons I don't have the luxury of getting to full capacity.

[dr.hal]

This is an important question that, in many ways in terms of a response, calls for research, not observation/speculation. I for one have done no research here, but I do often have only two aircraft for a full squadron of green pilots and see steady progression (but not researched, just observation). One would argue that fewer planes means less flight time per pilot and more fatigue per aircraft, which calls for more aircraft in order to sustain an adequate training regiment. That's certainly true in the real world. However, as in many aspects of this game, the real world would be difficult if not impossible to model. I would speculate that the developers might not have put the time and effort into modeling this aspect of reality. I would be interested in getting some feedback along these lines from developers, but know that's unlikely. So I think I'll continue to put a minimum number of aircraft in training squadrons until someone comes up with definitive proof that this approach is actually not as effective as a full complement of aircraft in a training squadron (as would be expected in real life). I mean no disrespect to any of the authors of the above inputs as their observations are just as valid as mine are. But a true test of this question might set the record straight for us all. Hal

[Canoerebel]

That's what we're doing. We're tossing around hypotheses, observations and guesswork. That leads to further observations. Eventually, somebody (Alfred or LoBaron, etc.) will show up and offer definitive information. In the meantime, we've probably helped the OP a bit.

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
In the meantime, we've probably helped the OP a bit.

You did [:)] Just in case, I filled up like crazy the squadrons with planes (I always followed the two-plane doctrine). RHS includes more planes (numbers and models).

As Hal said, either the game simulates this or it's abstracted.

[InfiniteMonkey]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Sorry if this was already asked but I can't get the search function to work.

Let's suppose x squadron is a "training" unit. Two scenarios:

1) squadron has 0, 1 or 2 planes only
2) squadron has the maximum number of planes

Will the pilots of 1) and 2) increase their skill/s at the same speed?

Thanks in advance [:)]

The short answer is the more planes you have, the faster the group will advance. There are multiple components to training advancement. From my testing, number of planes is one of the more important ones in determining rate of advancement. I'm slowly building a document "How to be a Japanese Fan Boy" that covers a wide range of topics important to Japan. My section on training pilots is something like 10 pages in OneNote right now... One day, I'll share.

[Revthought]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

My experience is that aircraft squadrons with no aircraft will not train pilots.

I don't know that this is true. In at least one of my games I have a number aircraft poor (0) Dutch squadrons that have reactivated.

Like you, I assumed no aircraft = no training, but since I had no other use for them, I thought "what the hell" and sent them on training missions and forgot about them. Eventually when I checked I noticed that pilots in those 0 aircraft squadrons had green numbers in the skill I was attempting to train them on, which meant that the pilots had learned something in the last day.

[bush]

Only an observation but I am pretty sure this was covered (no surprise) by Alfred and there is supposedly NO difference in training based upon amount of planes - including 0 - or pilot/plane ratio. I remember when I read this I stopped worrying about it and have trained this way ever since, so I have never taken the time to compare how quickly the training occurs.

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: bushpsu

Only an observation but I am pretty sure this was covered (no surprise) by Alfred and there is supposedly NO difference in training based upon amount of planes - including 0 - or pilot/plane ratio. I remember when I read this I stopped worrying about it and have trained this way ever since, so I have never taken the time to compare how quickly the training occurs.

Alfred is indeed a walking encyclopedia so I guess this definitely answers my question. Many thanks to everyone [:)]

[rustysi]

Only an observation but I am pretty sure this was covered (no surprise) by Alfred and there is supposedly NO difference in training based upon amount of planes

I had thought otherwise, but this has been my understanding since. No difference that I can see.

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

ORIGINAL: bushpsu

Only an observation but I am pretty sure this was covered (no surprise) by Alfred and there is supposedly NO difference in training based upon amount of planes - including 0 - or pilot/plane ratio. I remember when I read this I stopped worrying about it and have trained this way ever since, so I have never taken the time to compare how quickly the training occurs.

Alfred is indeed a walking encyclopedia so I guess this definitely answers my question. Many thanks to everyone [:)]

I believe Alfred is one of the developers, so he's more than an encyclopedia. I don't know whether he's walking or not.

My experience is you don't need anywhere near a full complement to train efficiently. In reality most training was done sitting at a desk in front of a chalkboard. Always under supply training units with aircraft, and be as clever as you can making sure you have no more than 1/3 the full complement. This of course applies to units that are training only. Training can and should continue in operational units, and much of that will also be desk/chalk type learning. Also know or remember that operational units acquire experience quite rapidly and giving these units 20% training enhances that. Keeps them sharp too.

[dr.hal]

Alfred is many things, but he is not one of the developers. Hal

[geofflambert]

An addendum. My remark about being clever; it does matter what type of aircraft is assigned to the training unit. For instance, if you are IJN, you can use a unit equipped with Jakes to train fighter pilots. This is not true with some of the other floatplanes. So you might have to be a whole lot cleverer than me to get the aircraft you desire assigned to the unit you wish without actually having some of those aircraft present. Just do your conversions when the supply of loose aircraft of the type you want is limited. Another trick is if you wish, and the unit is allowed to divide, divide it into 3 and have each assigned its own aircraft model and train for separate mission types. By doing this, among other reasons unrelated, you can return the bulk of the original aircraft type to the pools while assigning the thirds whatever obsolete or surplus aircraft are available.

[geofflambert]

Alfred seems to have knowledge of the source code so that would make him one of those things he is "many" of.

[InfiniteMonkey]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Alfred seems to have knowledge of the source code so that would make him one of those things he is "many" of.

Either Alfred is mistaken, or you all misinterpreted his comments. I have not seen the posting you refer to, so I am not sure which. The information posted here that number of planes does not matter is simply wrong.

Test/results:
I took 10 air groups with equal exp, morale, etc. and sized them all at 15 planes. I named each air group TEST-1 through TEST-10. I put 1 aircraft in the 5 even numbered groups, and 15 aircraft in the 5 odd numbered groups. I then brought each group up to full strength in pilots and ran a turn.

Results:
Test-Odd Groups (15 aircraft): +8, +3, +7, +7, +3
Test-Even Groups (1 aircraft): +0, +1, +1, +1 , +0

The +x number indicates the number of pilots that had in increase in air skill - none in any squadron had increases in DefN or Exp.

As you can see, in NO case did an air group with 1 plane increase the skill of more than one pilot. Also, in EVERY case, the groups with 15 aircraft increased at least 3 pilots.