GD1938 Game 28

[cpdeyoung]

But, but their uniforms are so green.

[lordlau1]

Hey Ironduke, are you staying in the game?

[ironduke1955]

As far as I can tell game 28 is a play test of the weather conditions we have tested the MOD and come back with the following findings.

1) Engineer problem needs to be addressed so they are not effected by weather mud or snow.

2) The exemption to the Soviets taking a Readiness hit in Mud or Snow has no basis in historical fact, Hitlers decision to not provide winter clothing and basic winter preparedness measures, was the reason for the success of the Soviet 41/42 winter offensive that and Hitlers strategic mishandling of the offensive delaying the attack on Moscow for a unnecessary southward attack to assist Army Group South that turned out not to be needed.

3)If we are modelling mistakes made by historical leaders then there should be a requirement for a no retreat option for the Soviets and a requirement that they launch a required number of attacks on the Germans during the first four to five months of a invasion of the Soviet Union.

4) The effects during the winter also applying to Naval and Air units giving the Soviets at sea and in the air a superiority for the entire game over powers Like the US UK and Japan all over the globe where weather effects apply are a game breaker.

5) There are Soviet armies in the Balkans at the moment benefiting from a weather exemption that is just supposed to apply to the Russian front.

So we have play tested these changes and the results are back time to start a proper game, with the above problems that now exist with the MOD rectified as the MOD is currently unplayable. Count me in for a restart.

[cpdeyoung]

Some thoughts for Ernie, and all players, to consider.

The Russian people are familiar with weather that is beyond Western European experience. This can be reflected in the game.

1. Let's introduce a card for "Winter warfare preparations" which will be free for the USSR, but will cost everyone else PP.
2. The Soviets should get a small bonus for winter land combat due to the greater experience with Russian winters. If this can be restricted to snow and mud that seems to work.
3. If a small penalty for mud and snow can be applied to engineers that might work. Pioneer work was made much more difficult in these weather conditions. Even 10% extra EP for engineering tasks would work I think.

Many players of games on this scale hate weather rules, while others see a need to differentiate "good campaigning weather" from sub-optimal. Perhaps weather could be optional.

All discussion should be informed by Ernie and Bombur, who know what can and cannot be done.

I am willing to continue Game 28 with players who know the flaws Tom mentions. It would be interesting to see how much they affect the game by actually playing more.

Chuck

[nedfn1]

I would like to understand more about the winter modifications for units. It seems to me that we are talking about building in too much complexity to deal with the early history of the war. I do not think we should be modeling WWII with all of the mistakes that were made. Therefore, the weather should affect all units and all nationalities equally. Everyone learns to deal with the weather. It was my understanding that the weather affected readiness of all units. This seems to be fairly reasonable and simple. If readiness also reduces the EP that engineers build up then readiness is the only variable needed for bad weather operations.

I will go with the majority rule on continuing this game. I support Ironduke in that we were testing the first weather rules. I would prefer to restart with the same players. Having said that, the timing of Ironduke's unilateral decision to leave the game appears to be in response to recent successes of GB and Russia. Perhaps we should all play a few more turns to see if Germany can recover and to more fully explore the winter effects. If we played another 4-5 turns to get through the first winter it would fully test the Winter rules.

[ironduke1955]

No need to consider.

The Chinese people the American people in fact all nationalities are familiar with local weather in their native countries, does this mean that they should all receive a bonus for fighting on home soil. Reality Mud and Snow are pretty much the same in any country and details of weather patterns in foreign countries are common knowledge, only a fool like Hitler would not make provision for something that is common knowledge.

Game 28 gives massive advantages to the Soviet Union none of them either historic or factual, Mud sticks to the Soviets boots and they freeze to death just like other nationalities and accounts of the Finnish War and accounts of the Russian front will confirm this, they lost more men to the Cold than the Germans but that is not considered, the myth is that only the Germans were effected, very much like the 1812 campaign the Russians lost some four hundred thousand men to the cold marginally more than the French and their allies.

Players like a level playing field game 28 has been skewed in favour of the Soviet Union. I would happy to play the Soviets on the restart to prove that the Soviets can do well without altering the balance of the mod.

[ironduke1955]

The Germans have not engaged anyone but the French so far and have performed as well as they normally do. In so much as France was captured. Pretty good going for 1938.

Its the Italians who are not faring well but then they never do and to be honest they are doing better than on previous occasions when I have had control of them, the context of Turkey was that it should have gone to the Soviets but was stolen by the Italians on a coup, no chance of holding Turkey but the up side was is that the Soviets and as it turns out the British had to destroy a army that should have been under Soviet control.

But they are likely to be fighting Soviets in the Balkans in 1939, the Germans will suffer a 15% reduction to readiness for urban areas and 35% reduction on clear snow clear areas, the Soviets will be at 100% readiness but they will be .8 against 1.0
national abilities the Germans have not yet used the tech militarism that would give them a 15% percent additional bonus. The Soviets may not be at .8 but only the Soviet player would know this.

And the trouble with these reductions to German effectiveness they are happening in the Balkans as far as I understand these changes they are meant to reflect conditions in the Soviet Union and only in the Soviet Union.

[cpdeyoung]

Many game designers have built "General Winter" into their game.

Gary Grigsby's "War in the East" is a good example, where winter plays a very large role. "Time of Fury" is another.

The brand new "Strategic Command WW2 in Europe" also has provision for a very consequential winter.

So I think it is really rather common, and should be considered.

Chuck

[ironduke1955]

I have War in the East so that is a poor example WITE reduces German Mobility, A German Panzer Division can have 50 Movement Points/Action Points on June 22 1941 Barbarossa, in the winter that can be a fraction of that down to 25% of its maximum with other factors like supply interdiction etc taken into account. But that is it a reduction in movement rates that could be achieved with the use of weather only without a punitive reduction to readiness for all other nations air sea and land across the globe.

[cpdeyoung]

I have "War in the East" too. I stand by my statement that it "plays a very large role". Your milage may vary.

I am sure Ernie will explore suitable mechanisms, and I would like to hear, form him, what is possible.

Chuck

[ironduke1955]

So you agree that a reduction in mobility is what is required and we have that already with the introduction of Mud and Snow, so the reductions to readiness can be removed from all other major power during winter months. Sounds fine by me can't wait for the restart.

But lets not forget Engineers need to work the year around, not just in 7 months of the year.

[nedfn1]

What is wrong with a simple readiness reduction for all units in severe weather conditions? Does not readiness affect AP?

We have 2 votes to restart and 2 votes to continue. One vote remaining to make a decision.

[ironduke1955]

You could I guess the weather reduction in mud halves movement rates already, a 15% reduction in readiness would give a reduction to AP in fractions, point is readiness is about logistics supply deficiencies organisational problems suffered by combat, if you already have the movement reductions due to Mud or Snow, and then you add more reductions to readiness for mud and snow you are doubling down.

Just to clarify ATG changes the AP cost of entering a hex during Mud and Snow months.

[Bombur]

I must talk to ernie, from my POV what we need to do is to give the Soviets a decrease of readiness in the Winter, althought smaller than other nations. From what I know, Soviet equipment as a whole is better designed for the winter months, the T-34 for instance, had larger tracks that gave it more mobility. Of course, I think we could find more information on the effect of weather in the East Front. However, in my opinion, we shouldn´t make adjustments in this game until we have more extensive playtest. So, if Iron Duke wants to quit, I´m ready to take his place, so I could draw my own conclusions.

[nedfn1]

This sounds like the best option to me. Let's play through the first Winter. Ironduke should continue to play the German.
Not good to quit a game.

[Bombur]

I will study this text to see if I get any ideas. If Iron Duke wants to remain playing it is much better


http://www.allworldwars.com/Effects-of- ... ussia.html

[Bombur]

https://www.quora.com/Why-didnt-the-Rus ... zi-Germany

Also some ideas here

[ArmouredLion]

Considering the time Bombur puts into this mod, it would seem that helping him play test this aspect is the least we can do. If some need an * next to any wins and loses, it's understandable. Let's do at least one winter, so future games can reap the benefit. I'm fine with a reboot after that...let's consider this a play test.

[nedfn1]

Well said. I agree. How about Ironduke?

[ironduke1955]

Bomber has the password. I wish him luck.