Disorganization Penalty- Land combat

[adarbrauner]

Does anybody know please, what penalty is calculated against a disorganized unit involved in combat's resolution, and where this rule can be found in the manual?

[juntoalmar]

1D10: "Add 1 to the roll for each disorganized land unit defending in the hex" Rules as coded page 79
2D10: "+2 for each disorganized defending corps/ army unit. +1 for each disorganized defending notional or division sized unit." Player's Manual Vol 2 page 159

[juntoalmar]

When having questions regarding rules, is always a good idea to check the table of contents (in the PDF or physical book) and scan for what should be a sound place to be ("Land combat" for 1D10 and "Optional Land Rules" for 2D10)

[Orm]

No idea about the manual. But RAC (Rules as Coded) mention it in 11.16 Land combat. Note that there is a different die roll modifiers if using the 2d10 optional rule.



Cut from: 11.16.1 Declaring combats
Defending units that are out of supply when resolving combat defend with their full combat factors if they are
organized.
If they are out of supply and disorganized, they have (before modifications):
• 3 combat factors if they are elite units; and
• only 1 factor if they aren’t.
AsA/MiF/PoliF option 2: All disorganized divisions defend with 1 combat factor when out of supply.


Cut from: 11.16.5 Resolving attacks
Rolling dice
The attacker now rolls a die. Add 1 to the roll for each disorganized land unit defending in the hex.

[davidachamberlain]

I suggest that you read through section 8.7.2.22 (pp 41-51) in Volume II of the rules.

It will go over the process and all of the details about modifiers.

This MWIF game is based on the cardboard and paper board game and uses the combat tables and resolution from that game. It can be a little complex until you get familiar with it.

Dave

[adarbrauner]

Thank you Junto.
I always check, and I suspected this to be the rule, just I was puzzled by the possible great penalty of adding one to the dice roll for every disorganized unit (wow!). This, added with uncertainty about the rules and the game etc, led tot he question.

But thank you!

[adarbrauner]

Thanks to all!

[adarbrauner]

ORIGINAL: Orm

No idea about the manual. But RAC (Rules as Coded) mention it in 11.16 Land combat. Note that there is a different die roll modifiers if using the 2d10 optional rule.



Cut from: 11.16.1 Declaring combats
Defending units that are out of supply when resolving combat defend with their full combat factors if they are
organized.
If they are out of supply and disorganized, they have (before modifications):
• 3 combat factors if they are elite units; and
• only 1 factor if they aren’t.
AsA/MiF/PoliF option 2: All disorganized divisions defend with 1 combat factor when out of supply.


Cut from: 11.16.5 Resolving attacks
Rolling dice
The attacker now rolls a die. Add 1 to the roll for each disorganized land unit defending in the hex.

Thank you! I've reviewed the paragraph pointed by David Chamberlain.

Combat factors: what is that, what does it mean?

[davidachamberlain]

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

ORIGINAL: Orm

No idea about the manual. But RAC (Rules as Coded) mention it in 11.16 Land combat. Note that there is a different die roll modifiers if using the 2d10 optional rule.



Cut from: 11.16.1 Declaring combats
Defending units that are out of supply when resolving combat defend with their full combat factors if they are
organized.
If they are out of supply and disorganized, they have (before modifications):
• 3 combat factors if they are elite units; and
• only 1 factor if they aren’t.
AsA/MiF/PoliF option 2: All disorganized divisions defend with 1 combat factor when out of supply.


Cut from: 11.16.5 Resolving attacks
Rolling dice
The attacker now rolls a die. Add 1 to the roll for each disorganized land unit defending in the hex.

Thank you! I've reviewed the paragraph pointed by David Chamberlain.

Combat factors: what is that, what does it mean?

The combat factors are the strength of the units - in this case the defender. What is being referenced is when units are out of supply (usually surrounded by the attackers). When disorganized and out of supply, you ignore the strength printed on the counter and instead use a factor of 1 (if black print) and 3 (if white print).

That means that out of supply, disorganized units can much more easily be destroyed. The black print units are essentially speed bumps for a Blitz attack with the white print being just a bit more than that. As a defender, it is important to keep your disorganized units in supply or they won't last long.

Dave

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

Thank you Junto.
I always check, and I suspected this to be the rule, just I was puzzled by the possible great penalty of adding one to the dice roll for every disorganized unit (wow!). This, added with uncertainty about the rules and the game etc, led tot he question.

But thank you!

As Orm has added to Juntoalmar, although what Juntoalmar says is correct in the case you mentioned (disorganized), it's also true what Orm says if they are disonganized and out od supply,

Imagine an inf of 7 factors (combat strenght ), disorganized, attacked by two inf stacks worth a total of 35 if there were not any modifiers, it would initially get a 5:1, a +10 in the 2D10 table., and because of the disorganization the defender would lose only -2 (or the attacker gain +2) for a net + 12. Pretty small loss instead IMO, real life, for a unit who has just been bombed intensively and forced to spread thin, in orden to survive has a real small combat capability ...

That same unit, if it is OOS (out of supply) would be valued onlt 3 combat factors, so the ratio wit the same 35 points of the attackers would be 35/3= 11,66:1 = 23 The unit is dead, because 23 is the maximum (worse possible result), it wouldn't even be necessary to roll the dice.

And we hadn't added the +2 yet!

Now, with an ART (brigades) or Divs, it can be even worse. You have arts and arm divs worth 4 strength, for example , and if disorganized and OOs would be worth 1 point each of strength instead of 4, making easy a 10:1 for example even just with one attacking stack, plus it would still have a -1 (or +1 for the attacker). Now, that's a penalty.

Edit: As long as the div/brigade is not stacked with a Corps or Army unit.

[brian brian]

Note: a +1 on the 1d10 or +2 on the 2d10 is very nearly, though not perfectly, identical, to raising the odds level by one column on the land combat chart.

[Joseignacio]

Well there are changes for the two different tables 1d10 and 2d10, but after you have calculated the ratios, IMO, it's exactly the same a +1 in the 1d10 or a +2 in the 2d10, to raising the odds level by one.

Could you explain what is the difference in your opinion?