The Gamiest Game in Town - EL (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)

[el lobo]

BURMA May 9, 1943 Turn 519

Future sweep targets.

[PaxMondo]

you can afford plane losses in CAP (much lower pilot losses) in '43 rather easily, so don't worry so much about that. I'm assuming his bombers were 4E's escorted by P40K's. If so, this is where George's versatility shows up. 4x20mm is much better than 2x20mm. BUT, you have Jack and it will work, just cost you more planes, not necessarily more pilots. Get more groups involved is all I can say. He won't bring his 4E's often, when he does, you need to make him pay ... this last trip, his bill wasn't high enough.

Your mix of aircraft here on defense is probably what hurt you, and cost you a lot of Jacks. Remember, the planes don't arrive together just because you put them on CAP. They each respond as they can, so fast climbers show up first ... all alone ... and are outnumbered 6:1, fight bravely, but take high losses. This is where when you used a mix bag of AC, you need to carefully layer your CAP based upon their respective response rates (combination of luck, climb, exp, %CAP, and leadership). Takes a lot of practice, and losses, to get those 5 variables mixed right. Oh, and morale and fatigue factor heavily as well. There are some REALLY good players who are just brilliant with this. Herb is one, read some of his old AAR's where he sprinkled in some combat results periodically and a few times even laid out his exacting tactics for managing AC.

I might add, this is also a reason why lazy players (like me) prefer very few (or better just one) models. It takes several of the variables off the table and makes setting CAP heights much easier. If, for example, these were all Tojo C (which in mid-43 is likely what I would have on CAP at a forward base unless I was CAP trapping 4E's), then setting CAP heights really just comes down to each groups morale/exp/leadership: low ones would be set low, higher ones higher. I can adjust them every few turns really quick/easy. But add in 5 models at the base, now I have to also factor in climb rate, top speed/man, etc. Takes more effort and frankly about half way through I run out of time and then have to decide whether to pull the trigger on the turn or wait until tomorrow to finish the turn....

anyway, just thoughts for you to use as you see fit ...

[el lobo]

Thanks Pax. Good thoughts.

BURMA May 11, 1943 Turn 521

Another brutal day in the air.

The evacuation of Prome has begun. I will dig-in the the jungle hex to the s/e.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: el lobo

Thanks Pax. Good thoughts.

BURMA May 11, 1943 Turn 521

Another brutal day in the air.

The evacuation of Prome has begun. I will dig-in the the jungle hex to the s/e.

Actually, trading 1:1 IJ fighters to allied bombers is a trade that I will normally accept as just fine. At least 23 allied bombers don't make it home ... that's almost 2weeks supply lost in one day ...

[Lowpe]

That is a great day for Japan![:)]

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I might add, this is also a reason why lazy players (like me) prefer very few (or better just one) models. It takes several of the variables off the table and makes setting CAP heights much easier. If, for example, these were all Tojo C (which in mid-43 is likely what I would have on CAP at a forward base unless I was CAP trapping 4E's), then setting CAP heights really just comes down to each groups morale/exp/leadership: low ones would be set low, higher ones higher. I can adjust them every few turns really quick/easy. But add in 5 models at the base, now I have to also factor in climb rate, top speed/man, etc. Takes more effort and frankly about half way through I run out of time and then have to decide whether to pull the trigger on the turn or wait until tomorrow to finish the turn....

anyway, just thoughts for you to use as you see fit ...

If you use low CAP you don't have to worry about any of this stuff!

Just set CAP at 5k, 7k, 9k, with your most manoeuvrable airframe low, and your best with the best pilots high.

Easy! [:)]

[el lobo]

BURMA May 12, 1943 Turn 522

Thank you guys. I feel better about this now.

Now, if you liked yesterday's, I think you will like today's also.

Sorry obvert but I tried to go with Pax on this one. [:)]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

This is where when you used a mix bag of AC, you need to carefully layer your CAP based upon their respective response rates (combination of luck, climb, exp, %CAP, and leadership). Takes a lot of practice, and losses,

I went with their climb rate this time. I set the George at 20K, the Zero at 15K, and the Tojo at 10K. I forgot to set the Nick but it was at 12K.

The screen shot shows the first afternoon Allied raid and it looked to me during the CRs that all of the a/c were in the battle at the same time.

My cap faded to nothing during the seven morning raids but held strong through the five afternoon raids.

I don't mind the Zeros taking the hit this turn as I have a few.

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
Herb is one, read some of his old AAR's where he sprinkled in some combat results periodically and a few times even laid out his exacting tactics for managing AC.

Sorry, I could not find any of his AARs.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: el lobo


Sorry, I could not find any of his AARs.

aka 1275psi

look for about 2 or 3 back ... the last couple of times he hardly ever includes any combat reports, just story line.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: el lobo

BURMA May 12, 1943 Turn 522

Thank you guys. I feel better about this now.

Now, if you liked yesterday's, I think you will like today's also.

This is what you should aim for. A6M will have high losses even with armor as their DUR is so low ... again, your pilot losses should be minimal and that is what counts. PLUS, his pklot losses are high and that counts double. You want to not on ravage his AC pools, but more importantly do not allow him to build up pools of high exp pilots himself.

Remember, to cull your groups frequently. move 80+ (or even 75+ exp) pilots out and move your 'newer' trained pilots in. Fighter pilots, you just will never, ever have enough in your pools. you think you do until you reach '45 where you are losing them so fast. Remember, the allied pool exp is MUCH higher than the IJ pool and it climbs each year.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: el lobo



My cap faded to nothing during the seven morning raids but held strong through the five afternoon raids.

more groups at a lower CAP setting is what you need for this. common when your opponent is using a large number of bases to attack your one.

you can also LRCAP from another base or CAP from another base and use range to encompass. Both of these two techniques are less efficient than the first though ...

eriks comment is correct, but not quite as precise as I like. meaning, I know what he says will work for most people, i'm just more picky. why? scramble to 10K for Zero = 5mins. for Jack = 3 mins. that's 2 mins they fight all alone ... 120 seconds in a dogfight where 2 sec bursts kill is an eternity in RL and the way Ian has built the A2A model. At least that is my outcome. I also freely admit to more than a modicum of OCD.[8|] [;)]

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: el lobo

My cap faded to nothing during the seven morning raids but held strong through the five afternoon raids.

more groups at a lower CAP setting is what you need for this. common when your opponent is using a large number of bases to attack your one.

you can also LRCAP from another base or CAP from another base and use range to encompass. Both of these two techniques are less efficient than the first though ...

eriks comment is correct, but not quite as precise as I like. meaning, I know what he says will work for most people, i'm just more picky. why? scramble to 10K for Zero = 5mins. for Jack = 3 mins. that's 2 mins they fight all alone ... 120 seconds in a dogfight where 2 sec bursts kill is an eternity in RL and the way Ian has built the A2A model. At least that is my outcome. I also freely admit to more than a modicum of OCD.[8|] [;)]

Not sure what you're saying about not precise? [;)]

I was unbelieving for a long while about the specific low CAP all set below 10k, but it works in tests much better than anything else I've tested. Loka was suggesting I try a higher n to make sure I'm getting consistent results, and I've been able to slowly work through testing 20 times on each of several settings. He set me three groups at 31k, 20k and 10k to combat high sweeps, and I tried those against the low CAP. I'm just compiling and will post soon in my AAR.

Pax, give me your ideal altitudes, airframes, etc to combat a 4 group P-47 sweep from 4 hexes. You have three groups of 45 planes, any airframes, to play with. I can test what you would normally do, and if I was a betting man, I'd say I could use the same planes and put in them in a low CAP at 9k, 7k, and 5k and they would do better.

I'm starting to think I know why, but still working on all of the reasons.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: obvert

...and if I was a betting man, I'd say I could use the same planes and put in them in a low CAP at 9k, 7k, and 5k and they would do better.

I'm starting to think I know why, but still working on all of the reasons.

correct.

low alt multi-layer CAP clearly works particularly with IJ AC as most of them suffer much more performance loss at altitude compared to 2nd gen allied AC. You just want to be sure ALL of you CAP is in place at the same time. Those who arrive early to the party are easily killed by numbers ... or you can look at it from the opposite perspective, if a layer doesn't arrive in time, then it doesn't count in yo9ur tactic, just as if the group wasn't present.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: obvert

...and if I was a betting man, I'd say I could use the same planes and put in them in a low CAP at 9k, 7k, and 5k and they would do better.

I'm starting to think I know why, but still working on all of the reasons.

correct.

low alt multi-layer CAP clearly works particularly with IJ AC as most of them suffer much more performance loss at altitude compared to 2nd gen allied AC. You just want to be sure ALL of you CAP is in place at the same time. Those who arrive early to the party are easily killed by numbers ... or you can look at it from the opposite perspective, if a layer doesn't arrive in time, then it doesn't count in yo9ur tactic, just as if the group wasn't present.

It was trying the same settings with early Allied airframes that has been leading me down the road of understanding. It's not a blanket tactic to apply to any set of planes, and it does require some real attention to the specific planes and positions.

While I keep trying to find a correlation for climb, I've not been able to do it. The IJ have so many good planes for climb, but the things I've noticed so far are that his manoeuvre airframes in the lowest bands (Oscar, A6M, George, etc) seem best in the ow spot, while the faster, more heavily gunned airframes work better up high.

[Lowpe]

Obvert, test low cap versus Jugs with the lowest band a sentai of Oscar Ic and A6M2 please.[&o]

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Obvert, test low cap versus Jugs with the lowest band a sentai of Oscar Ic and A6M2 please.[&o]

Ha! The PDU-off version? [:D]

[Lowpe]

Actually the A6M2 and the Oscar IIb would be better choices for the endgame PDU off version.

I used Nates down low and in CAP traps in my last game in those dark days of 1944.[:)]

There gets to be a point in most games where Japan is really scraping the bottom of the barrel for fighters.

[el lobo]

This is great discussion guys. Please keep it going.

[el lobo]

CHINA May 12, 1943 Turn 522

Meanwhile, back at the war.

Way back when, I said I was going to close all the hex-sides at CK and Pax advised to be careful ringing that bell. Well, I did not ring that bell and Rio moved some troops out of CK.

We will see how this develops.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 77,46 (near Chungking)

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 32271 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1443

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: el lobo

CHINA May 12, 1943 Turn 522

Meanwhile, back at the war.

Way back when, I said I was going to close all the hex-sides at CK and Pax advised to be careful ringing that bell. Well, I did not ring that bell and Rio moved some troops out of CK.

We will see how this develops.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 77,46 (near Chungking)

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 32271 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1443

I don't understand your post here, but I'm not up to speed on the game either, so maybe you've explained it previously.

Did you have troops here that the Chinese shocked out against? Over a river into a x3 hex? [X(]

what does the rest of that combat look like? You only seem to have the Chinese side here.

They should have been moving for over 10 days to get out. Do you have recon on Chungking? Have you been bombing the troops? As of now you should be able to obliterate those where they are for the air and move back in, then attack after about a month of bombing.

[adarbrauner]

He has been bombing Chunking daily for about an year.

Still, in his last attack less than amonth ago, he suffered 35.000 (!) casualties, against irrelevant enemy losses.