Postpone Netplay Development

[Centuur]

To me, it looks to be perfectly logical that regression bugs will appear when Steve is working to get netplay bugs out of the way. The point is: if regression bugs are found, what is than the best way to proceed? That's not for us to decide.

So asking for a postponement of netplay development will not fix your problems at all. If Steve fixes a regression bug, will that bug not cause a regression bug in netplay again? And if Steve than later fixes the netplay bug, will he know what happened in solitair a couple of months ago and can he remember this?

In the situation where we are in now, we need to accept that if one uses a beta test version after the netplay challenge started, regression bugs might appear in solitair. So if you don't test netplay and don't want to accept this, why use the latest beta version?

I've accepted the chance of regression bugs appearing, because I think netplay bug fixing should now have the same priority as solitair bug fixing. Otherwise we will never see a netplay version of this game appearing, which is needed.

[paulderynck]

+1

[rkr1958]

ORIGINAL: Centuur
I've accepted the chance of regression bugs appearing, because I think netplay bug fixing should now have the same priority as solitair bug fixing. Otherwise we will never see a netplay version of this game appearing, which is needed.

I agree, but daggummit the capability to manual set convoy routes that aren't immediately overridden by what the game wants to do needs to be fixed! This capability once existed but was broken a while back. I'll argue that this capability is one of the essentials for any play whether solitaire, hotseat or the vaulted netplay. Am I really asking for too much here?

[AllenK]

I agree Netplay is needed but it will never work properly if the basic game mechanics remain bugged.

It makes no logical sense to carry on trying to build the roof when the walls aren't structurally sound. It makes even less sense if the effort to put the roof on keeps breaking chunks off the walls.

[davidachamberlain]

ORIGINAL: AllenK

I agree Netplay is needed but it will never work properly if the basic game mechanics remain bugged.

It makes no logical sense to carry on trying to build the roof when the walls aren't structurally sound. It makes even less sense if the effort to put the roof on keeps breaking chunks off the walls.

Allen, I think because you were not looking at this product several months ago you missed the fact that before any work started on substantial testing of Netplay, the known unresolved defects were few. The initial work was all about making sure that Solitair and Head-to-Head errors was resolved.

Your analogy is totally out of place. We are a year past that point now where the Netplay testing is going stronger after a couple years of focusing exclusively on Solitaire and Head-to-Head.

If anything, the additional testing for Netplay has uncovered the new problems (that affect both Netplay and Solitaire) and some fixes to those problems re-introduced previously fixed solitaire problems.

If only addressing the solitaire problems was still the priority (as it was early last year), the job would be considered mostly done with just minor tweaks.

Dave

[AllenK]

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

ORIGINAL: Centuur
I've accepted the chance of regression bugs appearing, because I think netplay bug fixing should now have the same priority as solitair bug fixing. Otherwise we will never see a netplay version of this game appearing, which is needed.

I agree, but daggummit the capability to manual set convoy routes that aren't immediately overridden by what the game wants to do needs to be fixed! This capability once existed but was broken a while back. I'll argue that this capability is one of the essentials for any play whether solitaire, hotseat or the vaulted netplay. Am I really asking for too much here?

Exactly. Convoys were not working properly in the official 2.1.4 or 2.2.0 either and the issues were never fixed before launching into getting Netplay working.

[Klydon]

And this stuff is exactly why I have pretty much stayed away from playing this game (WiF is one of the best games ever and easily one of my favorites). The lack of support for MWiF has also caused me to have pause about purchasing other Matrix products.

I played the game a lot when it first came out, but frustrations of having to use work arounds because of supply issues and also the convoy system pretty much ruined any enthusiasm I had for the game. I was ready to jump back in when I heard the half map game was getting close, but that has been a long time ago.

The only reason I come here any more is to watch the AAR's the "4 amigos" have going. At the same time I get a chance to check on status of the game, but it seems every monthly report is the same and we get a report of "bugs were fixed" with no other progress on any other area of the game being made.

I would like to see some more engagement from Matrix to try to satisfy the player base and people that bought this game. 4+ years guys and we still don't have a working game with no foreseeable future of anything getting fixed.

That there is still traffic in here despite all the issues should tell Matrix something. Question would be if anyone who is listening actually cares.

[rkr1958]

ORIGINAL: Klydon
4+ years guys and we still don't have a working game with no foreseeable future of anything getting fixed.

I disagree with you on this. Hopefully I don't jinx myself but I'm currently in a PBEM game and AAR with Pat and we-ve just finished turn 19 and are about to start turn 20 (Nov/Dec 1942). This game been running since the first of July of last year. Also, I've completed at least 4 solo games on which I've posted an AAR. So please don't take my current frustration as I believe the game is not working. For me it is working and is, by far, the best investment in any board or computer game I've ever made.

[rkr1958]

OK, here's a perfect example of MWiF messing up my convoy routes. I had routed through the Pacific an RP from Malaya to Toronto. Note that that the entire CP chain I had set up for this RP, which was working as intended, is now idle. The intended chain was 6 CPs long. Instead, MWiF decides to route this RP in the other direction through the Med and requires 8 CPs. To add insult to injury this unintended route takes up CPs that cause two factories to go idle. The first is a CW factory at Manchester which was being supplied by an oil point routed from Venezuela. The second is a French factory at Paris being supplied by an RP from Hanoi, French Indo-China. I plan on not even messing with these routes to try to fix them, which in the end after an hour or two would be probably be futile anyway. I plan to edit the game file and give both the CW and French an extra oil point that they can supply to these two idle factories.

P.S. I just realized that this forced route causes 3 not 2 factories to go idle. The third is in Lille France which was supposed to be supplied by an RP from Kayes, Senegal.

So this example of convoy routing gone wrong and without the ability to override and make that override stick, results in three allied factories unnecessarily going idle. In the old days before I figure out how to edit the game file to make this right I'd spend hours pulling my hair out and still not get it the way I wanted!

[Jagdtiger14]

4personalbusiness wrote:

v2.3.4 is working well for PBEM. Lars and I are now in MJ44 and haven't encountered anything fatal. Yes, some work-arounds have been required, but the game is playable. Sounds like we better just hold here until the big wheels turn past this whole netplay thingy... Pete

I completely agree. I am currently playing this version with a long distance opponent (Australia). We have gotten through M/J'41 with out too much trouble. One minor one a while back which was resolved, and now the one posted in tech concerning the Algerian MIL. I highly recommend players go to this version. Stay there until Netplay is complete (which I have my doubts about).

Concerning Netplay, if I cant keep a wireless connection to it, then its fairly useless. Maybe I need a better router, or maybe Matrix/Slitherine do not have the necessary infrastructure. Even if MWiF Netplay was completely bug free and working 100%, if it means I have to pay more money just to play this game (router upgrade, or deal with cables running across the floor...which my wife already vetoed anyway) then forget Netplay. I don't see it as Steve's fault. Matrix is a terrible company for many reasons. I think they are forcing Netplay. I would rather see optionals, scenarios, and a manual convoy system added to 2.3.4

[AlbertN]

I personally agree first all the Optionals should have been coded at least, before to get into Netplay proper. But a company may have different priorities than what logic may dictate.

On the other hand I moved on to play WiF via Vassal - lots of extra math and tracking to do (thanksfully it's someone else keeping the gearing limits, etc) but at this stage we're also using the draft of the next rules publicly disclosed on the ADG webpage.

[AllenK]

ORIGINAL: davidachamberlain

ORIGINAL: AllenK

I agree Netplay is needed but it will never work properly if the basic game mechanics remain bugged.

It makes no logical sense to carry on trying to build the roof when the walls aren't structurally sound. It makes even less sense if the effort to put the roof on keeps breaking chunks off the walls.

Allen, I think because you were not looking at this product several months ago you missed the fact that before any work started on substantial testing of Netplay, the known unresolved defects were few. The initial work was all about making sure that Solitair and Head-to-Head errors was resolved.

Your analogy is totally out of place. We are a year past that point now where the Netplay testing is going stronger after a couple years of focusing exclusively on Solitaire and Head-to-Head.

If anything, the additional testing for Netplay has uncovered the new problems (that affect both Netplay and Solitaire) and some fixes to those problems re-introduced previously fixed solitaire problems.

If only addressing the solitaire problems was still the priority (as it was early last year), the job would be considered mostly done with just minor tweaks.

Dave

I've been looking at and persevering with this product since Feb 2014, so please get your facts straight.

So, there were few known defects, only needing minor tweaks, in Solitaire when it was decided to work on Netplay. The length of the change logs, which presumably reflect work on "known defects", somewhat undermines this statement. However, be that as it may, given the list of known defects with Solitaire mode appears to have considerably lengthened, you have nicely confirmed my point that work on Netplay has increased the problems and undone some of the work that was done to fix the bugs in Solitaire. Thank you, as you have also confirmed the analogy you thought to be so totally out of place to be fundamentally correct. The effort to put the roof on is knocking chunks out of the patches that were put on the walls to get them to at least stand upright.

While Rome burned, the Emperor fiddled and the Minister for Propaganda assured everyone they were all living in the best of all possible worlds. Everything was going exactly to the divine plan and those who couldn't see this were simply misguided heretics at fault for their lack of faith and wanting someone to put out the fires!

[Viktor_Kormel_slith]

I feel I´m in a middle point in this topic, by one side I understand the interest of Matrix in the development of netplaying, probably the game is stuck (on selling terms) and netplaying could bring new customers. By other side, I agree with some of you, the code changes is causing fatal and regression bugs that makes difficult to play in solitaire and hotseat modes (the modes I usually play). From my point of view, there is not a good way to proceed with the scarce resources of the proyect, so I accept the way that they have chosen while development keep going onwards. Not withstanding, I have decided not to use betas versions in my games. Unfortunetely it mean that I can´t help to detect bugs in last versions. I think this is a problem for development, there is no many players or play testers. Summaring, ok to work with netplaying before other things (optionals and thinks like so..)but I think the first priority must to be a correct basic game, specially when new o regression bugs appear in the new versions.

[warspite1]

Well I have sent a PM to Erik, asking for a comment from Matrix on this, so let's see what comes of that.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: AllenK

...

Basically, what we have to assume is that Steve has called for more beta testers, since the last versions are called beta, but anyway the state of the NetPlay is a Beta state as well.

If you are testing betas, you are subject to possible regressions. And considering the pace at which bug patching has been evolving before, it will not become solved anytime soon. We'll need to develope even more patience.

I understand your frustration, which I feel myself; yours may be bigger if you like solo mode or PBEM (which I don't) and you feel you are going back in these...

All I can say is that Steve is constantly pushed forward by players who will only play netplay or AI (like myself) and for whom the game without this is of no use, and slowed down by others who will use or can use PBEM or enjoy solitaire and want it to work perfectly before moving on. It's impossible to satisfy everyone and Steve has finally the last (and only) word, he likes to listen but even among the customers opinions are divided.

Your opinion is as good as anyone else's, but your post and other posts, apart from being valuable reporting bugs have a certain flavour to discourage others from testing, which I think is not fair, but anyway is probably unnecessary considering the fatal errors of the game (in my case I could not pass the deployment in several trials).

[Sir Roland]

Here we are years later and the damn convoy is still creating chaos from order. Convoy ROUTing.
My favorite system to hate on. It can make a player go batshit kray kray coming up with the perfect ROUTe.
Only to find out the AI ignores your input. Paid full price. Have yet to get my money's worth.
Not the recommendation Matrix wants to hear. Nevertheless it is my opinion paid in full.

I'd like to read a reply that promises more than lip service. The last official patch was released Jan 2016.
How about spending a month or 2 and updating the solitaire version. You know. That version we can play with ourselves.
Or maybe even with someone via TeamViewer.

Yep. I'm adding my comment because more voices are needed to get some attention for this path.
Then we can go back into our man caves and fiddle with the game. But for this moment in time.
I'll help be a voice for some change.

Lets get this donkey show some help to be that fine solitaire game it was advertised to be.

[Joseignacio]

What you are proposing is that those who don't enjoy Solitaire (¡!) or PBEM will have to wait even more time to play the game. At the moment, what we have got is nothing.

We paid our money for the game too. Just sayin'...

[Sir Roland]

I am proposing that a stable solitaire game that was advertised is not what we have at the moment.
Time is not relevant. It has not been for years. If time was important. More resources would be allocated.
As harsh as it may sound. Yes, AI wait. NetPlay has a workaround. Its called TeamViewer, the phone, email.

Its a donkey show that needs more time no matter the path. Have a beer if it helps.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: Sir Roland

I am proposing that a stable solitaire game that was advertised is not what we have at the moment.
Time is not relevant. It has not been for years. If time was important. More resources would be allocated.
As harsh as it may sound. Yes, AI wait. NetPlay has a workaround. Its called TeamViewer, the phone, email.

Its a donkey show that needs more time no matter the path. Have a beer if it helps.

Solitary satisfies (I guess) 10% of the buyers, and that only because it's a game initially for hardcore wargarmers and we are more used to having to resign to this. And even most of these would prefer Netplay if available.

NetPlay has not workaround, First Netplay is not working, second TeamViewer means giving control of your computer to unknown persons, and anyway it's not the way the NetPlay is supposed to work, it's just a patch some players use, in despair for not having a real NetPlay.

If the solitaire is not working, guess what happens with NetPlay, which has all the problems of the NetGaming, plus the Solitaire unresolved, plus the regressions... and it was advertised as well.

Beer is available to every side, you can have one too.

[Sir Roland]

The game as a solitaire version has not had an official patch since Jan 2016. Waiting longer to enjoy an AI or NetPlay will be just another sacrifice.
One WE will all make.
As harsh as it sounds. Yes they can wait a couple months.
Why not?

This donkey show is moving about as fast as one could expect with no additional resources and few dedicated playtesters.
Had Matrix come clean in the beginning and advertised the game as a beta. It might have had a more favorable rollout. Maybe even more long term play testers.
That went out the window long ago.

I don't expect all players to agree on a path. Should we just "suck it up", like we have been since 2016? Patch wise.