Kicking An Idea Around

[GaryChildress]

Been contemplating a mod to utilize some of the ship and plane art I did for the Germans and French. Basically the Germans vs the French on a completely fictitious map.

1. The Germans will have their full fleet as proposed in Plan Z.

2. The French will have their full fleet plus some additions to give them approximate parity with the Germans.

3. A completely fictitious map designed to give both sides an approximately even setup. All bases will be completely new. The mod won't utilize any of the stock bases.

I'm interested in hearing others' reactions to the concept of a completely fictitious map with each side having parity in strength of their forces.

Below is the map as it currently appears in the initial stages of development. A lot of work still to do if I decide to go through with this mod. Will need to completely rewrite the PWHex file.

Germany would be concentrated in the bottom left corner and France in the upper right. Much of the rest of the map will be undeveloped bases, with a few strategically placed operational bases thrown in.

[GaryChildress]

Here's a close-up of the islands in the middle of the map. Actually using slightly modified terrain generated from the game Advanced Tactics Gold.

[Barb]

Isn't there too much water and too few ground over the whole map? This map supports "Kitchen Sink" type of play - What kind of planes do you expect to make an appearance? Historical '40s? '41s? '42s? 39-45? With Lend Lease?

Or is this going to be just a Seaplane/Naval Search with little other air and just fleets fighting?

[warspite1]

A couple of things:

What additions are you proposing for the French? If the Germans get the full Plan Z fleet, the French are going to need a lot of new units to get parity!

What's the storyline? By that I mean what is the focus for each fleet and why they are at sea? Three examples: e.g. in the Pacific War, naval superiority (and of course naval air) was vital in view of the need to move from island to island across the vast expanse of the Pacific. In the War in the Mediterranean the focus was on the Axis needing to supply North Africa and the British needing to supply Malta. It was this that brought the fleets out. Carriers were less important because of the closeness of land based air. In WWI the German need to break the British blockade was the catalyst for Jutland.

Presumably if using Plan Z the Germans will have four(?) carriers and so the French will need the same (two Graf Zeppelin's and two Joffre's +2 others for each?). What sort of land based air are you proposing - particularly for the French to counter the Condors?

Anyway, lot's of example scenarios to base a game on but I think for this to work there needs to be a proper, thought out story and so a reason for each fleet to exist and operate.

Just my 2 cents.

[Barb]

Yup.. also what kind of air is to be involved... He-111s can carry two torpedoes on naval strike... but just one Gruppe was available and trained for torpedo attack... Ju-88 as main Dive bomber? Ju-87 as short range dive bomber? With their 500kg/1000kg bombs they would be nasty!
What will the Frenchies have to counter?

There is a lot of sea around.. and to keep it both fleets will need carriers to project power. Otherwise who grabs a land is the master of the air around it....

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

A couple of things:

What additions are you proposing for the French? If the Germans get the full Plan Z fleet, the French are going to need a lot of new units to get parity!

What's the storyline? By that I mean what is the focus for each fleet and why they are at sea? Three examples: e.g. in the Pacific War, naval superiority (and of course naval air) was vital in view of the need to move from island to island across the vast expanse of the Pacific. In the War in the Mediterranean the focus was on the Axis needing to supply North Africa and the British needing to supply Malta. It was this that brought the fleets out. Carriers were less important because of the closeness of land based air. In WWI the German need to break the British blockade was the catalyst for Jutland.

Presumably if using Plan Z the Germans will have four(?) carriers and so the French will need the same (two Graf Zeppelin's and two Joffre's +2 others for each?). What sort of land based air are you proposing - particularly for the French to counter the Condors?

Anyway, lot's of example scenarios to base a game on but I think for this to work there needs to be a proper, thought out story and so a reason for each fleet to exist and operate.

Just my 2 cents.

Hi Warspite,

No story, just two sides slugging it out with what's available to them. The whole thing is too fictitious to worry about having a story, I think.

Parity will admittedly be difficult to attain. It will have to be a very approximate parity, not necessarily ship for ship and gun for gun.

For example both sides will have 10 modern capital ships. (For the Germans; 6 H-class, 2 Bismarck, 2 Scharnhorst. For the French; 4 Alsace class, 4 Richelieu, 2 Dunkerque)

France will have the Courbet and Bretagne class BBs (6 ships total) I could offset them with some modernized German WW1 BBs that were historically scrapped. Or I could consider them (and the fact that the French have more cruisers) as leverage against the 15 Panzerschiffe and 3 O-Class BCs the Germans will have.

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: Barb

Isn't there too much water and too few ground over the whole map? This map supports "Kitchen Sink" type of play - What kind of planes do you expect to make an appearance? Historical '40s? '41s? '42s? 39-45? With Lend Lease?

Or is this going to be just a Seaplane/Naval Search with little other air and just fleets fighting?

I like the idea of a primarily water map. WitP is really not all that ideal for land warfare anyway.

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: Barb

Yup.. also what kind of air is to be involved... He-111s can carry two torpedoes on naval strike... but just one Gruppe was available and trained for torpedo attack... Ju-88 as main Dive bomber? Ju-87 as short range dive bomber? With their 500kg/1000kg bombs they would be nasty!
What will the Frenchies have to counter?

There is a lot of sea around.. and to keep it both fleets will need carriers to project power. Otherwise who grabs a land is the master of the air around it....

So far I have the Germans with 4 Graf Zeppelin class CVs and 4 Seydlitz class CVLs and the French with 4 Joffre class CVs and 4 Bearn class CVs.

[Revthought]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
I like the idea of a primarily water map. WitP is really not all that ideal for land warfare anyway.

The problem is the "kitchen sink" play that this leads to. In other words, without more land to fight over, there is no strategic incentive to do anything other than throw everything you can into largest fleet/TF you can manage and re-enact Jutland(s) until someone is the "winner."

That's not necessarily fun to do more than once.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

ORIGINAL: warspite1

A couple of things:

What additions are you proposing for the French? If the Germans get the full Plan Z fleet, the French are going to need a lot of new units to get parity!

What's the storyline? By that I mean what is the focus for each fleet and why they are at sea? Three examples: e.g. in the Pacific War, naval superiority (and of course naval air) was vital in view of the need to move from island to island across the vast expanse of the Pacific. In the War in the Mediterranean the focus was on the Axis needing to supply North Africa and the British needing to supply Malta. It was this that brought the fleets out. Carriers were less important because of the closeness of land based air. In WWI the German need to break the British blockade was the catalyst for Jutland.

Presumably if using Plan Z the Germans will have four(?) carriers and so the French will need the same (two Graf Zeppelin's and two Joffre's +2 others for each?). What sort of land based air are you proposing - particularly for the French to counter the Condors?

Anyway, lot's of example scenarios to base a game on but I think for this to work there needs to be a proper, thought out story and so a reason for each fleet to exist and operate.

Just my 2 cents.

Hi Warspite,

No story, just two sides slugging it out with what's available to them. The whole thing is too fictitious to worry about having a story, I think.

Parity will admittedly be difficult to attain. It will have to be a very approximate parity, not necessarily ship for ship and gun for gun.

For example both sides will have 10 modern capital ships. (For the Germans; 6 H-class, 2 Bismarck, 2 Scharnhorst. For the French; 4 Alsace class, 4 Richelieu, 2 Dunkerque)

France will have the Courbet and Bretagne class BBs (6 ships total) I could offset them with some modernized German WW1 BBs that were historically scrapped. Or I could consider them (and the fact that the French have more cruisers) as leverage against the 15 Panzerschiffe and 3 O-Class BCs the Germans will have.

warspite1

Gary no problem, its your scenario. However just one final point on why I suggested the backstory.

Two sides slugging it out is probably good for a couple of runs throughs before getting all a bit samey and luck dependant.

For immersion and replayability I think a story makes sense. For example that middle island could be a Guadalcanal type scenario. The island is tentatively held by one side - and they need to reinforce, while the other needs to grab it back.

The island is not well developed so ships cannot be parked there forever - they need to replenish back home - so timing becomes critical. As does what you use your fleet for. Offensively looking to destroy the enemy, escort of your own transports or providing naval air and gunfire support to your troops.

But anyway, just a bit more flavour to support my original suggestion, but ultimately good luck in whichever way you decide to go.

[RyanCrierie]

DO IT. DO IT. DO IT. DO IT.

Oh, I also see someone else had the idea of using Advanced Tactic's map generator for "ideas". [:D]

[RyanCrierie]

ORIGINAL: Revthought
The problem is the "kitchen sink" play that this leads to. In other words, without more land to fight over, there is no strategic incentive to do anything other than throw everything you can into largest fleet/TF you can manage and re-enact Jutland(s) until someone is the "winner."

That's not necessarily fun to do more than once.

A scenario randomizer could fix that...

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: Revthought

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
I like the idea of a primarily water map. WitP is really not all that ideal for land warfare anyway.

The problem is the "kitchen sink" play that this leads to. In other words, without more land to fight over, there is no strategic incentive to do anything other than throw everything you can into largest fleet/TF you can manage and re-enact Jutland(s) until someone is the "winner."

That's not necessarily fun to do more than once.

That's a good point. What would be your suggestion to create a less "kitchen sink" type of game.

I was planning on making that mass of islands in the middle a kind of DEI or Resource area which both sides would need to hold in order to keep their forces adequately supplied and fueled. Basically most of the map resources would be in that area and all the industry for converting the resources into usable products would be back at the home bases in the upper right and lower left corners.

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

ORIGINAL: warspite1

A couple of things:

What additions are you proposing for the French? If the Germans get the full Plan Z fleet, the French are going to need a lot of new units to get parity!

What's the storyline? By that I mean what is the focus for each fleet and why they are at sea? Three examples: e.g. in the Pacific War, naval superiority (and of course naval air) was vital in view of the need to move from island to island across the vast expanse of the Pacific. In the War in the Mediterranean the focus was on the Axis needing to supply North Africa and the British needing to supply Malta. It was this that brought the fleets out. Carriers were less important because of the closeness of land based air. In WWI the German need to break the British blockade was the catalyst for Jutland.

Presumably if using Plan Z the Germans will have four(?) carriers and so the French will need the same (two Graf Zeppelin's and two Joffre's +2 others for each?). What sort of land based air are you proposing - particularly for the French to counter the Condors?

Anyway, lot's of example scenarios to base a game on but I think for this to work there needs to be a proper, thought out story and so a reason for each fleet to exist and operate.

Just my 2 cents.

Hi Warspite,

No story, just two sides slugging it out with what's available to them. The whole thing is too fictitious to worry about having a story, I think.

Parity will admittedly be difficult to attain. It will have to be a very approximate parity, not necessarily ship for ship and gun for gun.

For example both sides will have 10 modern capital ships. (For the Germans; 6 H-class, 2 Bismarck, 2 Scharnhorst. For the French; 4 Alsace class, 4 Richelieu, 2 Dunkerque)

France will have the Courbet and Bretagne class BBs (6 ships total) I could offset them with some modernized German WW1 BBs that were historically scrapped. Or I could consider them (and the fact that the French have more cruisers) as leverage against the 15 Panzerschiffe and 3 O-Class BCs the Germans will have.

warspite1

Gary no problem, its your scenario. However just one final point on why I suggested the backstory.

Two sides slugging it out is probably good for a couple of runs throughs before getting all a bit samey and luck dependant.

For immersion and replayability I think a story makes sense. For example that middle island could be a Guadalcanal type scenario. The island is tentatively held by one side - and they need to reinforce, while the other needs to grab it back.

The island is not well developed so ships cannot be parked there forever - they need to replenish back home - so timing becomes critical. As does what you use your fleet for. Offensively looking to destroy the enemy, escort of your own transports or providing naval air and gunfire support to your troops.

But anyway, just a bit more flavour to support my original suggestion, but ultimately good luck in whichever way you decide to go.

Well, you do have a good point. Perhaps a back story would be a good idea.

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: RyanCrierie

Oh, I also see someone else had the idea of using Advanced Tactic's map generator for "ideas". [:D]

Oh no! Who beat me to it? [:o]

[Barb]

For a less "Kitchen Sink" scenario I would add some medium sized islands/bases around the central archipelago (be it between Home base and center or flank and center) - To be used as springboard/forward base/etc.

So even if one side grabs the central archipelago, the other side wouldn't be thousands of miles away from it, but just close enough to support raids, and gradual counter-offensive (something like Pearl Harbor for Central Pacific, Noumea/Luganville/Fiji for South Pacific or Truk for Japanese) ?

[mind_messing]

I love the notion of colonial conflicts.

I like the map, and I like the idea even more. I'd suggest plagiarising a lot of the Guadalcanal scenario's ideas.

Some suggestions.

Scenario suggestion: French trying to seize the German colony on the central island, followed by German commitment to take it back.

The French only own the north-eastern island of the Central Archipelago (small port, moderate airbase)

The Germans own the rest of the Central Islands. The largest island is heavily developed on it's southern half, with the German colonial capital (moderate port, moderate airbase, CD guns) being located at the south-western extremity.

Poor/no roads everywhere but the south of the Central island.

Limited base sizes everywhere but the major islands. Lot's of dot bases for float-plane game-play but few bases to mount massive LBA strikes from other than the big islands. Most base VP's focused on the central island.

Give the French the initial advantage in the opening weeks/months of the scenario. They have significant naval and ground forces to seize the colony as fast as possible, while the Germans have to drag out the campaign until reinforcements arrive.

Stagger the German reinforcements over several months, so giving them the choice of committing units piecemeal or going in with the kitchen sink after several months.

I'd guess the best scale for this type of scenario would probably be on the regimental level. Perhaps give one or two divided divisions to the French at the outset, and a few more to the Germans later on.

The French goal is to seize the German colony as fast as possible and dig in until the Germans come to the table.

The German goal is to hold on to their colony if possible, and if not to retake the colony before it becomes a national embarrassment.

[GaryChildress]

How about if I staggered reinforcements for both sides, started both sides with a minimal token force and then recommended players to use "variable +/- 60 days" for their reinforcement queues. That way both sides would need to wait for their forces to accumulate and the variable time scale would mean that neither one would know when the other will receive certain units. Meanwhile, while their forces are building, they would still need to try to conquer or hold various bases throughout the map.

[Big B]

I just wanted to say - Gary, I love what you are doing here, fresh map and a new game!
I really hope you can tailor it to work well with the game engine.... keep up the good work!


B

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: Barb

For a less "Kitchen Sink" scenario I would add some medium sized islands/bases around the central archipelago (be it between Home base and center or flank and center) - To be used as springboard/forward base/etc.

So even if one side grabs the central archipelago, the other side wouldn't be thousands of miles away from it, but just close enough to support raids, and gradual counter-offensive (something like Pearl Harbor for Central Pacific, Noumea/Luganville/Fiji for South Pacific or Truk for Japanese) ?

How about something like this. Each side would have stepping stones to the center and likewise toward the opposing force's main land mass.