Armored type unit and capabilities

[Dili]

I am thinking to apply armored unit tag to more units, those that have fast trucks giving it mostly to some motorized artillery units - thinking about battalion level, regiment have more deployment issues but maybe those too - also including those AA units that were fully on trucks. Any reason i should not do this? Are the armored and artillery unit classes more than just mobility and UI convenience?
In game armored divisions have artillery and also that split Japanese armored divisions have an artillery battalion classed as armored.

[PaxMondo]

Mobility is the key difference ... have done the same things you are proposing and only game difference I see is movement rates.

[Ian R]

Yes, there is a reason. Pure AAA devices don't have an (soft) assault strength. And armored units move faster. You can have not-armored elements in an armored formation, but they will undergo horrendous disablements unless they have sufficent motorised support.

Putting motorized support in a ground unit with AAA devices is one thing, but putting AAA units in a pure subformation with motz sup is another.

You need to research which units had AAA battalions that were truck/afv borne, not truck towed. As far as I can tell, on the allied side there are some M15/M16/M19 units, but not a lot else, and the IJ situation is worse. The machine gun AA units were low calibre types. (I am not referring to the Red Army here.)

If you include separate MGMC btns driving the M15/16 there is an argument for simulating these as a mobile unit with an a/soft assault strength. But, as with other things, lets see what the butterfly wing flap does.

Open the editor, look at the late war US Division TOE, then google up the (query type D or E? probably wrong) US standard 1945 division TOE. It had a AAA btn, and AAA elements within the regiments.

I would be interested to hear if your calculations agree with mine, to the effect that the late war separate MGMC btns have been 'factored in' to the division OOB, and do not require individual representation.

If I'm right - and I will stand corrected - if you start putting 'armored' AAA subdivisional units in, you need to take it away from the higher unit TOEs. Blackhorse, AndyMac and their team were very good, and their depiction is pretty good. I don't agree with all of it, but I can see what they did.

As it happens, I did put some SPAAA btns in my mod - in First Army in 1946 - but limited to corps and army assets that were over and above the divisional TOE.

Edit - units [with squad/afv/engineers with assault value] classification will shock/deliberate attack. Artillery only bombard. If you want vehicular AAA units to actually attack in the assault phase, I suspect you need to change them to afv classification, whether or not they have an anti-soft rating.

[Skyros]

I believe motorized support has nothing to do with movement but was created to increase the lift cost for the units using them.

See this post.

fb.asp?m=2595016

[Dili]

Thanks PaxMondo

Ian R this is for my Mediterranean mod and it is only for mobility reasons. I am being careful for no duplication of units and also keep tracking what kind of tractors and artillery piece wheels those units have. For example lots Italian units have Pavesi tractors that are very slow to tow artillery with metal/wood wheels. Those remain classified as artillery unit and not armored, likewise for any unit suspect of being animal towed.
Only units with modern type trucks and artillery guns with rubber wheels qualify for mobility update.

I also think that was the reason Skyros.

A doubt came up will "Armored" AA units fire if not attacked directly?

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Dili

Thanks PaxMondo

Ian R this is for my Mediterranean mod and it is only for mobility reasons. I am being careful for no duplication of units and also keep tracking what kind of tractors and artillery piece wheels those units have. For example lots Italian units have Pavesi tractors that are very slow to tow artillery with metal/wood wheels. Those remain classified as artillery unit and not armored, likewise for any unit suspect of being animal towed.
Only units with modern type trucks and artillery guns with rubber wheels qualify for mobility update.

I also think that was the reason Skyros.

A doubt came up will "Armored" AA units fire if not attacked directly?

I don't know, but my suspicion is "yes".

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Skyros

I believe motorized support has nothing to do with movement but was created to increase the lift cost for the units using them.

See this post.

fb.asp?m=2595016

correct AFAIK.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Dili


A doubt came up will "Armored" AA units fire if not attacked directly?

My units all react normally to the best of my observations. I created MOT INF units, but you have to make them ARM class or they don't get move bonus on roads.

I'm not differentiating between towed or SP arty/AA/AT. If I assign enough MotSupport to it, then it should get the road bonus and the poor terrain malus for movement.

If there is combat difference that anyone knows about, please share. I've never seen it and I sandboxed it 3? years ago (maybe more) ....

[Ian R]

ORIGINAL: Skyros

I believe motorized support has nothing to do with movement but was created to increase the lift cost for the units using them.

See this post.

fb.asp?m=2595016

Thanks for that link, to quote Bullwinkle there

The bottom-line is motorized support gets you no mobility (and I was surprised, as I'd thought it did.)

So I stand corrected on that.

[Ian R]

ORIGINAL: Dili

Thanks PaxMondo

Ian R this is for my Mediterranean mod and it is only for mobility reasons. I am being careful for no duplication of units and also keep tracking what kind of tractors and artillery piece wheels those units have. For example lots Italian units have Pavesi tractors that are very slow to tow artillery with metal/wood wheels. Those remain classified as artillery unit and not armored, likewise for any unit suspect of being animal towed.
Only units with modern type trucks and artillery guns with rubber wheels qualify for mobility update.

I also think that was the reason Skyros.

A doubt came up will "Armored" AA units fire if not attacked directly?

After reading the other thread, and the helpful comments here, it looks like:

1. Movement rate is governed by unit type - armoured units move faster (broadly speaking, as it depends on terrain sometimes). This is only governed by the unit type, not what devices it has.

2. You can put whatever device types you want in an armoured unit. They get the benefit of the movement rate. You don't need to put mtz sup squads in there.

3. AAA devices are generally flak capable guns/machine guns, and if you create, say, a Crusader AAA tank or a Flakpanzer IV as an AAA device in your mod, it will behave like one (while perhaps being more resilient to damage - not tested). Note that while HMG squads add to assault strength, AAHMG squads do not appear to count. If you put it in an armoured formation it will move accordingly - but, apparently, so will an AAMG transported by pack mule.

4. Mtz sup squads have a higher load cost, but a lower stacking cost with beneficial effects in terms of supply costs, atoll invasions, etc. They have no direct effect on ground movement.

The possible issue I'm going to have in my mod is that I made the M16 MGMC an AFV so it would deliver supporting fires in a ground assault. The grunts didn't nickname it the "Meat Chopper" for knocking down aircraft. I think that means it will function like a light tank, and not provide any air defence. I'll find out when I get to late 1945.

[Ian R]

Mr Chop-chop in operation near Carranglan in the Philippines in 1945.

[Dili]

Thanks for the feedback everyone, good to know this was already tested for such long time PaxMondo.

With 1 day movement what matters is operational/strategic movement and deployment - this last one is even handled by the game since we have to deploy the unit from movement stance.



Regarding units weight i am tempted to add a "truck" weight to every gun weight since they have to be towed, and the motorized support weight will be a truck plus a trailer.

[Dali101]

There is no reason to.
German Infantry Division had a platoon of transport vehicles (plus tractors for AT guns) to give the German Infantry Division about 48 motorized support.
Other normal support.

[Dili]

I think a German Inf.Division had more than 48 vehicles and with thousands of horses also would have quite bit quantity of carts. I mean i don't think a simple support give the correct unit weight, but it also depends on choices done for squad load coast, normal support load cost etc.

Probably Corps and Armies HQ's should have most or all support motorized to represent the heavier stuff they have, trucks poll and maybe "dead weight".

http://www.mnstarfire.com/ww2/history/l ... ision.html

A typical full strength infantry division would consist of roughly 17,000 men. Prior to 1944 a German infantry division would include over 5,000 horses and almost 950 motor vehicles. A division of this size would need 53 tons of hay and oats, 54 tons of food, 20 tons of petrol, one ton of lubricants, ten tons of ordinance and another 12 tons of miscellaneous supplies plus ammunition and baggage (approx 150 tons total per day).

A Panzer or Armored Division would be roughly 14,000 men. Usually there would be over 3,000 vehicles. One armored division required eighty trains of fifty five cars to transport it. "This gigantic movement occupied the full capacity of a railway for four whole days and nights."1 Moving via road a panzer division would stretch seventy miles and crept along at two and a half miles per hour.

The supply requirement for an average of motorized, mechanized and panzer divisions has been stated as approximately 300 tons per day.

Supply requirement for a German armored division is given as 30 tons per day when inactive and 700 tons a day when in heavy fighting. German Infantry divisions required 80 tons per day when inactive and 1,100 tons a day in heavy fighting. (in Russia) (Source: "German Tanks at War" by Bob Carruthers).

The Oxford Companion to WWII (page 695 "logistics") states that supply usage depends on the length of the supply lines and gives an example of by 1944 the Allied divisions needed 650 tons of supply per day while the German divisional needs had reduced to 200 tons per day.

US Army division supply (from "US Army Handbook 1939-1945" by George Forty) is stated as 1,600 tons a day to support a "division slice" plus two air wings (total of about 500,000 men):

1,100 tons of dry cargo
475 tons of petroleum
25 tons of vehicles

This was broken down as:

595 tons to the ground troops in the combat zone
65 tons to the air forces
365 tons to the divisional area

According to Forty's book, individual supply was 66.81 lbs per day per man in Europe (67.4 lbs in the Pacific):

7.7 lbs rations (6.7 lbs in Pacific)
0.426 lbs of clothing & equipment (1 lb in Pacific)
7.821 lbs of construction materials (11.9 lb in Pacific)
3.64 lbs of ammunition (5.14 lbs in Pacific)

American forces were considered "over equipped".