Rematch: Ragnarök - mind_messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A)

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

3-4 CV's per strike nets you something north of 1k VP's. Well worth the thousand planes in my view. If you've a strike that sinks 3-4 CV's though, then you've likely sank some ships on top of them as well...

While I agree that the Toka/Tsurugi are bad air-frames overall, their advantages are pretty key.

- That speed: it's faster than just about everything that's not a 3rd Gen fighter.
- Upgrade paths: all the late-war training bomber squadrons upgrade to it for no PP cost. Any other work-around either pulls frontline squadrons off duty or drains PP's.
- Massive improvement in capability versus the trainers that the late-war kami squadrons arrive with.

At the end of the day I'd rather have 300 Toka's than 300 Stella's.

I get what you're saying about using the Grace/Judy line for kami's, but you end up paying something like 250 PP's per squadron to convert the training squadrons outside of their line.

On top of that, by 1945, you end up having more capacity to train kami pilots than you do planes for them to fly unless you start to convert those training squadrons over. Otherwise you'd be converting regular squadrons to kami's, which is to be avoided as much as possible IMO. I'm a fan of keeping as many frontline aircraft in action as can be flown.

+1

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I'm kicking about the idea of a major expansion of LI in Manchuria to the tune of 500 LI centres to use up the resource surplus generated in China, Manchuria and Korea. While it takes until Dec 44/Jan 45 to pay LI expansion fully, I wonder if it wouldn't be worthwhile in helping to beat the late-war supply crunch.

The advantages I see to LI expansion are as follows:
- Utilises the one industrial product Japan has in abundance - resources
- Can be built in out-of-the-way bases.
- Unlikely to be directly targeted by strategic bombing.
- Doesn't use fuel.

Disadvantages
- Expanding LI close to Japan means resources have to be shipped in from further afield to keep the Home Islands industry running.
- Takes till Jan '45 for the investment to pay off.
- Can't be turned off.


I'm curious as to the best location to expand LI however. I think expanding LI in the Home Islands is a waste, and too exposed to strategic bombing.

Current thinking is to expand in Manchuria and Korea. I think this is the best option, as it's the safest area of the map for Japan (until August '45), has a big resource surplus and excellent infrastructure. It also offers the possibility for excess resources in Malaya, Indochina and China to migrate north.

The big stumbling block is that the China/Manchuria/Korea region is one of the big surplus zones for the Home Islands resource deficit, and the expansion of 500 LI centres puts a big dent in it.

I plan to be very aggressive in China, so I should be able to make up for the resource consumption quickly.

I had originally thought of expanding LI to the tune of 1000 LI centres, but Japan simply doesn't have the starting supply on-map in Scen 1 for such an ambitious expansion program, let alone all the other problems that comes with such a maximal plan. Even 500 LI centres is a cool half-million supply, which I'm happy to spend if it makes a difference come 1945. I just wonder if 500 supply a day will feel like an improvement come 1945?

What are people's thoughts?

I've argued this several times. I'm always against it. You have the gist of the arguments above. It all boils down to: the return on investment is so small and such high risk.

You need to invest in LI really early when you are normally short of supply due to economy investment and expansion. I'm always short of supply until ~3/42. To pull another million tons of supply, I would have to trade off other factory expansion OR not do this until mid-42 which pushes the 1000 days that much later into the game and then even lower potential ROI.

Next, it needs to be big investment to have any consequence. 1000 min. 2000-3000 really. That's a lot more resources to be moved, consuming that much more fuel. Generally , I have that, but once i commit to LI expansion, it means I have to be prepared to feed this monster which can constrain future decision even more than they typically are (fight for fuel when losses are higher).

Finally, if my opponent gets a whif of this strategy, it is so easy to counter. No matter where I build up the LI, it is vulnerable. I have to disperse it because I need to be building up at least 10 factories to keep the build time of 1000 manageable (100 days), but now those 100 factories will both show up on recon AND that location moves from minor to major target. Sure target dilution has some advantages for me, but 100K supply is awful expensive to create one and to provide so many VP's to my opponent.

I'll never do it at the ROI of 1000 days. HI at 500 days though ... yeah, definitely build some. How much? Oh, that is a really tough answer. All of the above is still true, BUT, since the ROI is so much higher (your breakeven is 500 days, so the risk is far lower and in general you do get +300 days of extra supply out of each factory. 800/500 is a nice return as a minimum ...

[mind_messing]

Construction Doctrine

My taste of the late-war game for Japan has me rethinking how best to use fortifications to maximise the defensive advantages for Japan.

Previously, I've held the opinion that building forts everywhere was the correct course of action: for an investment in supplies, forts act as a force multiplier that can't be destroyed by naval or air power - it takes boots on the ground to break forts.

However, I'm starting to form the opinion that a limited selection of bases with forts built to level 7, 8 or 9 may be much more effective than a proliferation of bases with level 5 or 6 forts.

Additionally, forts need to be situated where they can take the best advantage of terrain: in effect, x3 or x2 hexes. Forts in open hexes are, in my view, a waste of supply. There are some hexes that deserve forts that have clear terrain, but these exceptions are few.

Fortification Priority

On Dec 7th, there's little scope for the Allies to mount offensive actions on the ground, so there's little need for Japan to develop forts quickly.

To that end, I intend to capitalise on this to develop forts in the Home Islands as quickly as possible. My reasoning behind this is that by 1945, I want to ensure that fort construction in the Home Islands is complete, so as to remove one drain on the limited supply production in the late war.

To that end, I will likely siphon off large numbers of engineer units from China and Manchuria to do a tour of construction duty in Japan before heading off to frontline bases. In general, I'd like to adopt a policy of digging from the inside of the Empire, moving outwards.

Below is my list of priorities:

Japan

This is a thorny issue. In an ideal world, I'd like to dig all the bases here to level 9 forts. However, it's impractical and monstrously expensive.

There are 9 potential invasion sites with clear terrain (One on Hokkaido, one on Kyushu, seven on Honshu). These deserve at least level 7 forts. There are numerous other potential landing sites in less suitable terrain, so these can have forts ranging up to level 6 as a measure of expediency.

Additionally, there are 12 major centres of industrial and aircraft manufacturing that deserve forts ranging from level 6 up to 9 in order to help defend against strategic bombing. Most of these will get level 9 forts, as their industrial value is immense.

Airbases will be developed concurrently with forts, with the goal of building level 9 airbases in suitable locations for late-war air engagements.

Tsushima and Iki-shima will be developed to level 4 and 5 airbases respectively to take advantage of the CD guns. Iki-shima forts will be dug up to level 6 (Tsushima starts with level 6 forts).

Construction priority will go East-to-West. Hokkaido first, moving westward along Honshu.

Kuriles and Sakhalin

The Kuriles will all get level 7 forts, and airbases up to their SPS value (but not beyond). The exception is Ketoi-jima, which will not be developed.

Toyohara will be developed into a level 9 airbase, with level 8 forts to defend it. Shikuka will not be developed beyond a small fighter base (level 2 or 3) to defend the oil.

Bonin Islands

They'll get forts up to their level 6 maximum. Iwo-jima will get a level 1 airbase, but beyond that there will be no development here.

Ryukyu Islands

Both Naha and Nago on Okinawa will get level 8 forts, and Naha will be developed to a level 5 airbase.

Ishihaki will get level 6 forts and a level 4 airbase, while Amami Oshima and Daito Shoto will get level 6 forts and a level 3 airbase.

Formosa

I doubt I'll bother with forts here, as the clear terrain makes it essentially pointless. There will be extensive development of airbases on Formosa, however.

[PaxMondo]

Forts protect supply to some extent. Late war, I have to play a shell game pushing supply around to minimize losses to the allied bombing campaign. I identify bases where I'm going to need to hide supply and ensure I have good forts there.

Forts protect air bases to some extent. Late war, I also have to play another shell game as to where I can re-constitute high SR airgroups (almost all of them). It only takes one bad roll to have an airgroup shredded by TBolts or Stangs, which can then require easily 3 - 5 weeks for the group to recover from. These locations have to be identified and built up.

For both of these, there are a lot of good choices.

I do exactly what you proposed, bring a few MAN Egr units across and set them to work. Not too many, as there is plenty of time, but they do start 8Dec41.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Forts protect supply to some extent. Late war, I have to play a shell game pushing supply around to minimize losses to the allied bombing campaign. I identify bases where I'm going to need to hide supply and ensure I have good forts there.

Forts protect air bases to some extent. Late war, I also have to play another shell game as to where I can re-constitute high SR airgroups (almost all of them). It only takes one bad roll to have an airgroup shredded by TBolts or Stangs, which can then require easily 3 - 5 weeks for the group to recover from. These locations have to be identified and built up.

For both of these, there are a lot of good choices.

I do exactly what you proposed, bring a few MAN Egr units across and set them to work. Not too many, as there is plenty of time, but they do start 8Dec41.

I'd only considered the protection of airbases related to the presence of barrage balloons to limit those sub-6000ft strikes that Loka loves. Protection of supply is something I'd not thought of, but what you say makes sense. How much supply is lost when B-29s get 10 hits on Tokyo airbase supply dump? I'd hate to find out.

I'm thinking of stripping all of the standalone Manchurian engineer units in early '42, after they've finished expanding Fusan's port to maximum. There are enough organic engineers in the infantry divisions in Manchuria to form a respectable engineering corps if you shuffle them around, and China has enough organic engineer units to expand airbases for offensive purposes. Plus, you're not liable to need the forts and airbases in this region until 1945 anyways, which gives even limited resources the best part of three years to get some work done.

[Lowpe]

Boost the bases that spoilage occurs at first due to their small size and their plane/engine/vehicle expansion.

[Xargun]

What about Luzon ? Any construction plans there ?

[Aurorus]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Fortification Priority

On Dec 7th, there's little scope for the Allies to mount offensive actions on the ground, so there's little need for Japan to develop forts quickly.

To that end, I intend to capitalise on this to develop forts in the Home Islands as quickly as possible. My reasoning behind this is that by 1945, I want to ensure that fort construction in the Home Islands is complete, so as to remove one drain on the limited supply production in the late war.

To that end, I will likely siphon off large numbers of engineer units from China and Manchuria to do a tour of construction duty in Japan before heading off to frontline bases. In general, I'd like to adopt a policy of digging from the inside of the Empire, moving outwards.

Frankly (and Frank is important regardless), I would skip Oscar after the Ic and produce Tojo and Tony as my late 42 and 43 fighters. Heavy Tojo and Tony production (within reason) will result in substantially more allied plane kills, much more than Oscar, and can deplete the U.S. fighter pools well into 1943. This is why, in my opinion, PDU:On greatly benefits Japan. To not take advantage of this is to not take advantage of PDU:on.

I would be careful with an extensive fort-building program on the home islands in the early war. You will be short of supply, and this will drain supply very, very quickly.... large amounts, depending upon how many engineers you redeploy there. If you are like me, there is just not enough supply on Honshu to build many forts for at least 6 months.

[Aurorus]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


I am just cutting out the Tojo completely. There's not much that really seems an improvement over the Oscar, and the Oscar is just a more flexible air-frame. The only theatre where the Tojo shined for me was in Burma; everywhere else it was a defensive fighter. Sure, there may be a period in 42/43 where the Lightnings rule supreme, but from what I've seen they shot down Tojo's much as they did Oscars.

Frankly (and Frank is important regardless), I would skip the Oscar and focus exclusively on Tonies and Tojos. Tonies and Tojos get kills. Oscar does not. Heavy Tojo and Tony production (within reason) can deplete allied fighter pools into 1943. This cannot be achieved with Oscar. Neglecting Tojo and Tony neglects the biggest advantage that Japan derives from PDU:on, in my opinion.

The P38 may rule supreme, but unlike Japan, the allies have a fixed production of this aircraft, and you will never face more than this fixed production allows. The rest of the allied fighters are kills for Tojo and Tony if these are your front-line fighters, rather than Oscar.

[Encircled]

What about Luzon ? Any construction plans there ?

He's got to take it first! [:)]

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I'd only considered the protection of airbases related to the presence of barrage balloons to limit those sub-6000ft strikes that Loka loves. Protection of supply is something I'd not thought of, but what you say makes sense. How much supply is lost when B-29s get 10 hits on Tokyo airbase supply dump? I'd hate to find out.

Its a percentage of what's there ... that's why spreading it out as opposed to having it all at one location helps a great deal. 10% loss on 50,000 compared to 10% loss on 2,000,000 .... its a big deal. And fires burn a lot of supply ... so its the strategic attacks that hurt the most in terms of supply loss.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: obvert



Really? Isn't that a bit counter productive VP wise? That many kamis plus the strike planes would be a lot of points to the Allies. Is it worth it if you sink 3-4 CVs per strike?

I didn't like the Toka/Tsurugi for their lack of range and awfully low durability combined with lack of armor. Rather lose half as many fast 2E that get as many through for damage. Or just a bunch of Grace/Judys where I don't have to commit to another line of planes and I just use the training gross for what they are, training.

MM addresses why these are preferrable above due to PP's.

I will gladly spend +6000 aircraft to hit the Deathstar. Without the deathstar, the allies cannot accomplish amphib ops ... and they cannot protect what they have taken. Not too mention that each CV taken down is worth ~500 VP's including the air groups.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I'm thinking of stripping all of the standalone Manchurian engineer units in early '42, after they've finished expanding Fusan's port to maximum. There are enough organic engineers in the infantry divisions in Manchuria to form a respectable engineering corps if you shuffle them around, and China has enough organic engineer units to expand airbases for offensive purposes. Plus, you're not liable to need the forts and airbases in this region until 1945 anyways, which gives even limited resources the best part of three years to get some work done.

I do ... can't have enough engr's to support offensive ops ... need those AF's and ports being built up to support advances.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Aurorus

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


I am just cutting out the Tojo completely. There's not much that really seems an improvement over the Oscar, and the Oscar is just a more flexible air-frame. The only theatre where the Tojo shined for me was in Burma; everywhere else it was a defensive fighter. Sure, there may be a period in 42/43 where the Lightnings rule supreme, but from what I've seen they shot down Tojo's much as they did Oscars.

Frankly (and Frank is important regardless), I would skip the Oscar and focus exclusively on Tonies and Tojos. Tonies and Tojos get kills. Oscar does not. Heavy Tojo and Tony production (within reason) can deplete allied fighter pools into 1943. This cannot be achieved with Oscar. Neglecting Tojo and Tony neglects the biggest advantage that Japan derives from PDU:on, in my opinion.

Those are all defensive fighters. I choose not to relinquish the initiative until I have to ... not earlier than late '43 ... into '44 if I can.

Needing offensive fighters, that means Oscar/A6M until Frank/George, and even then until you get Frank r, you can't get to max Helen range without Oscar. George can pair with Jill and relieve A6M immediately. But Frances requires A6M for max range ... A7M is a defensive fighter capable of min range (8) attack support.

This is all PDU ON ... for PDU off, you just build what the groups need.

[Aurorus]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Aurorus

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


I am just cutting out the Tojo completely. There's not much that really seems an improvement over the Oscar, and the Oscar is just a more flexible air-frame. The only theatre where the Tojo shined for me was in Burma; everywhere else it was a defensive fighter. Sure, there may be a period in 42/43 where the Lightnings rule supreme, but from what I've seen they shot down Tojo's much as they did Oscars.

Frankly (and Frank is important regardless), I would skip the Oscar and focus exclusively on Tonies and Tojos. Tonies and Tojos get kills. Oscar does not. Heavy Tojo and Tony production (within reason) can deplete allied fighter pools into 1943. This cannot be achieved with Oscar. Neglecting Tojo and Tony neglects the biggest advantage that Japan derives from PDU:on, in my opinion.

Those are all defensive fighters. I choose not to relinquish the initiative until I have to ... not earlier than late '43 ... into '44 if I can.

Needing offensive fighters, that means Oscar/A6M until Frank/George, and even then until you get Frank r, you can't get to max Helen range without Oscar. George can pair with Jill and relieve A6M immediately. But Frances requires A6M for max range ... A7M is a defensive fighter capable of min range (8) attack support.

This is all PDU ON ... for PDU off, you just build what the groups need.

Not sure that I would call Oscar an "offensive" fighter: unless you mean offensive as in "bothersome." With drop tanks the Tojo does fine on range. If you really must escort your Helens at maximum range, I suppose leaving a couple squadrons of Oscars hanging such do the trick. But Tony and Tojo are your air superiority fighters. To maintain the offense, you must maintain air superiority. You will not with Oscar. If you want to build a pile of Oscars, why bother with PDU:On, and let the allies change around their air force, while yours remains the same as it would be without changing any of the figher upgrade paths?

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Aurorus


Not sure that I would call Oscar an "offensive" fighter: unless you mean offensive as in "bothersome." With drop tanks the Tojo does fine on range. If you really must escort your Helens at maximum range, I suppose leaving a couple squadrons of Oscars hanging such do the trick. But Tony and Tojo are your air superiority fighters. To maintain the offense, you must maintain air superiority. You will not with Oscar. If you want to build a pile of Oscars, why bother with PDU:On, and let the allies change around their air force, while yours remains the same as it would be without changing any of the figher upgrade paths?

Opinions vary ...

[Lowpe]

It is usually very difficult to engage the Allies in an offensive sweeping air war in 1942...because they run away most times. Once you are past the Flying Tigers, the Buffaloes and the Warhawks in PI, the Allies usually get very timid until they start sweeping with Lightnings.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Xargun

What about Luzon ? Any construction plans there ?

Manilla, Clark and Bataan all to level 9. It's expensive, I know, but Luzon is one of those key late-war positions for the Allied advance on the Home Islands.

Manilla needs the forts to protect against a south-to-north push up Luzon. Due to the ground combat rules, it's unlikely that defenders from Manilla will retreat to Clark, so you need to write the defenders of Manilla off.

Clark and Bataan need the forts to deny Manilla's port and shipyard once the base inevitably falls. CD guns in Bataan will ensure that Manilla isn't used until Bataan is cleared. Even better, the defenders of Clark are likely to be able to fall back to Bataan, so the Allies need to go through three level 9 forts to clear Manilla.

Everywhere else isn't really worth the supply.

ORIGINAL: Aurorus

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Fortification Priority

On Dec 7th, there's little scope for the Allies to mount offensive actions on the ground, so there's little need for Japan to develop forts quickly.

To that end, I intend to capitalise on this to develop forts in the Home Islands as quickly as possible. My reasoning behind this is that by 1945, I want to ensure that fort construction in the Home Islands is complete, so as to remove one drain on the limited supply production in the late war.

To that end, I will likely siphon off large numbers of engineer units from China and Manchuria to do a tour of construction duty in Japan before heading off to frontline bases. In general, I'd like to adopt a policy of digging from the inside of the Empire, moving outwards.

Frankly (and Frank is important regardless), I would skip Oscar after the Ic and produce Tojo and Tony as my late 42 and 43 fighters. Heavy Tojo and Tony production (within reason) will result in substantially more allied plane kills, much more than Oscar, and can deplete the U.S. fighter pools well into 1943. This is why, in my opinion, PDU:On greatly benefits Japan. To not take advantage of this is to not take advantage of PDU:on.

I would be careful with an extensive fort-building program on the home islands in the early war. You will be short of supply, and this will drain supply very, very quickly.... large amounts, depending upon how many engineers you redeploy there. If you are like me, there is just not enough supply on Honshu to build many forts for at least 6 months.

I intend the construction program to be concentrated - there won't be more than one hex being developed at a time, which will hopefully keep supply expenditure to a reasonable level. Supplies are something that I will need to watch, however.

ORIGINAL: Aurorus

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


I am just cutting out the Tojo completely. There's not much that really seems an improvement over the Oscar, and the Oscar is just a more flexible air-frame. The only theatre where the Tojo shined for me was in Burma; everywhere else it was a defensive fighter. Sure, there may be a period in 42/43 where the Lightnings rule supreme, but from what I've seen they shot down Tojo's much as they did Oscars.

Frankly (and Frank is important regardless), I would skip the Oscar and focus exclusively on Tonies and Tojos. Tonies and Tojos get kills. Oscar does not. Heavy Tojo and Tony production (within reason) can deplete allied fighter pools into 1943. This cannot be achieved with Oscar. Neglecting Tojo and Tony neglects the biggest advantage that Japan derives from PDU:on, in my opinion.

The P38 may rule supreme, but unlike Japan, the allies have a fixed production of this aircraft, and you will never face more than this fixed production allows. The rest of the allied fighters are kills for Tojo and Tony if these are your front-line fighters, rather than Oscar.

As Pax points out, the Tony and Tojo are both limited in regards to range. Concentrating investment into the Oscar line is beneficial as the late-war Oscar models compare very well with the Tony and Tojo in terms of performance, while having the range to escort bomber strikes.

ORIGINAL: Aurorus

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Aurorus





Frankly (and Frank is important regardless), I would skip the Oscar and focus exclusively on Tonies and Tojos. Tonies and Tojos get kills. Oscar does not. Heavy Tojo and Tony production (within reason) can deplete allied fighter pools into 1943. This cannot be achieved with Oscar. Neglecting Tojo and Tony neglects the biggest advantage that Japan derives from PDU:on, in my opinion.

Those are all defensive fighters. I choose not to relinquish the initiative until I have to ... not earlier than late '43 ... into '44 if I can.

Needing offensive fighters, that means Oscar/A6M until Frank/George, and even then until you get Frank r, you can't get to max Helen range without Oscar. George can pair with Jill and relieve A6M immediately. But Frances requires A6M for max range ... A7M is a defensive fighter capable of min range (8) attack support.

This is all PDU ON ... for PDU off, you just build what the groups need.

Not sure that I would call Oscar an "offensive" fighter: unless you mean offensive as in "bothersome." With drop tanks the Tojo does fine on range. If you really must escort your Helens at maximum range, I suppose leaving a couple squadrons of Oscars hanging such do the trick. But Tony and Tojo are your air superiority fighters. To maintain the offense, you must maintain air superiority. You will not with Oscar. If you want to build a pile of Oscars, why bother with PDU:On, and let the allies change around their air force, while yours remains the same as it would be without changing any of the figher upgrade paths?

I think we've quite fundamentally different views as to the use of the Tojo and Tony. They've never been air superiority fighters to me - they're defensive CAP fighters, and reasonably good at it.

The reason I'm concentrating fighter production to just Oscars is to shift the focus from mid-war airframes (Tony/Tojo) to late-war airframes (Frank, Ki-83, Randy) that are really air superiority airframes.

At the end of the day, I'm quite content to take a drubbing in the air through 1943 if it means I've a good pool of late-war planes to use in 1944 onwards.

[witpqs]

Luzon can be bypassed by the Allies. I did that, only taking it as a backwater operation.

[PaxMondo]

+1

I don't think you will take a drubbing in '43 no matter what you build ... because the allies are still very limited in fighter numbers except for F6F.

It is getting ready for '44 that has to happen as allied fighter numbers and quality start to really increase. Frank is critical to keeping pace. Getting it late '43 negates the allies P47 upgait nicely. [;)]

Where you are weak is the KB until you get A7M ... A6M is just not a match, in addition to everything else, the low DUR just doesn't hold up. F4U/F6F's are just too tough.

It takes a lot to get A7M in early '44, including luck. But you can and if you do, you can really surprise the allies. The Deathstar isn't a Deathstar in early '44 IF you have A7M's deployed in the KB .... particularly if you can CAP the KB with Frank/George. A full alpha strike can get through .... but you gotta trust your LBA CAP ... because I did say FULL ALPHA ... [;)]

As you can see from the "IJ NightMare" chart, after early '44, the KB can't touch the Deathstar. And truthfully, without the A7M, you can't touch it much after 9/43. But, with the A7M, and IF you have LBA cover ... well, you got a chance. After mid-44, I don't even see a chance. I have to keep the KB outta sight, it can only hit AFTER major LBA strikes (+4000 aircraft size) have hit it ...