Off to see the lizard.....

[Chickenboy]

Full disclosure: I mistakenly juxtaposed the geographical placement of Chichi-jima with that of Paramushiro-jima. The latter obviously makes an easy jump-off to Hokkaido (hence follow-up questions), the former an existential threat to all Pacific territories South and East of Japan.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

A great debunking of the rationalizations (mostly after the fact) for capturing Iwo Jima in MHQ. We can probably add this to Palau in terms of unnecessary expenditures:

http://www.historynet.com/worth-the-cos ... vasion.htm

I read in a book that over 15,000 aviators owed their lives to the existence of Iwo Jima as an emergency landing place for their aircraft (mostly B-29s).
And we don't know how many aircraft were NOT damaged because Iwo Jima based Mustangs were escorting them.

The cost of taking Iwo was indeed gruesome, but it was not expected to be such a tough target. The IJA was well hidden in caves so the intel on how many were there was poor.

[AW1Steve]

There's been a lot of good discussion on the historic here. Definitely fine dinning for thought. Thank you all , and please keep it up. I'll get back to some of the comments (Especially you Andre, but I'd like to do some research 1st...just for once I'd like to both get my facts straight and think before I put my size 10 in my mouth). In the mean while , let me give you my thoughts and philosophes on the subject so that you can savagely rip them apart (good fun for all!).

In nature , I'm a navalist. Not Mahanian , but Corbettean. How does that apply here?

Well for starts , to me the Pacific war was a sea war , naval in nature supported by air and land power. As opposed to Europe , which was a land war , supported by air and sea power. That said , I tend to consider land less important , except where a base is needed , or if I need to deprive Japan of one. That means I am very reluctant to seize any land that I absolutely don't need. I'd like Japan to seize more than he can handle (but obviously NOT to the point of giving him overwhelming victory points). The more islands he seizes , the more he needs to supply. And , if I'm careful , the more self-guarding POW camps we can lock his army into.

That means that my main enemy is his war fleet , followed by his merchant fleet. Once I destroy his fleet , in particular his CV's , then I can pretty much go where I want and do what I want. I might not need to invade Japan if I can blockade and bomb it. The sooner I can get to this phase , the better.

I see this war in a number of phases. I'm in the defensive phase. I'm weak, scattered and untrained. I need to salvage what warships and merchants I can, blood some pilots and primarily use land and light naval forces to bleed him and slow him up.

Once recover is finished , probably by Jan 1 1942 , then building begins. Every single obsolescent and obsolete plane goes to training duties, every ship that can be updated is as soon as possible , and new land units built up and trained. MPA aircraft are forward deployed , massive convoys are sent to build up forward operating bases , subs are pulled off the line one by one , repaired , upgraded and given aggressive skippers (then sent back). When a small CV group is ready , it starts raiding. Easy targets at 1st , then as more CV's are added , harder and harder. Still building , prepping and training.

When a series of interlocking bases are built , probably from Christmas Island (Pacific) to Brisbane , each well defended , built up, supplied and patrolled , then it's time to start trying to lure his CV's into battle. I expect this around July 1942, when I have up to 6 USN CV's , TBF's , RADAR on my subs, and big replenishment units backing up my subs. That's when I expect the crucial battle will occur , big and bloody. By using my LBA and shore based PBY/MPA aircraft I can see him 1st , attrite his aircraft , then hit him with everything I have. If I can destroy or cripple his 6 CV's , I'm willing to pretty much lose all of mine.

That's when I start getting serious about moving forward and grabbing bases. All this time my USMC units will have been training , specialized shipping and control units will have arrived , and will be ready. The needed bases may change with circumstances , but they'll need to be capable od decent size airstrips , and need to be "interlocking" with other nearby bases for mutual air support. One airstrip cannot defend itself , but several in range of each other can be formidable.

These bases need to continue till they reach their ultimate goal...putting bombers over the home islands of Japan and submarines within close range of it's choke points. I don't need the Philippines, but might consider Taiwan , China , or any island close to Japan. The goal is total starvation of the island by isolating it from supplies , while burning up what they have at a very fast rate (via bombing). I'd like to start bombing the home island by summer 1943. Please note that I said "like" , not expect.

Basically I want to fight dirty. Very, very dirty. I want to risk my forces as little as possible. That means standing off Japan , beyond Kamikaze range (or most escorted bomber range) and bomb the daylights out of him. 1st with night bombing , then with escorted daylight bombing. I'd very much like to start 6 months to 18 months earlier than it historically began.

OK, that's my simplified war plan in a nut shell. Start out with a modified War plan Orange/plan dog, then turn it into a submarine blockade/bomber offensive.

Gentlemen , you may now start throwing your tomatoes! [:D][:D]

[AW1Steve]

I received the turn last night. I'm busy right now doing some "damage control", (a lot of "prep work" to deal with potential flooding) , but hopefully will be able to knock off the turn this evening. I've already got the planning done (this game is so sloooowwwww that I've already planned out four moves ahead) but need to implement orders. [:)]

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

A great debunking of the rationalizations (mostly after the fact) for capturing Iwo Jima in MHQ. We can probably add this to Palau in terms of unnecessary expenditures:

http://www.historynet.com/worth-the-cos ... vasion.htm

I read in a book that over 15,000 aviators owed their lives to the existence of Iwo Jima as an emergency landing place for their aircraft (mostly B-29s).
And we don't know how many aircraft were NOT damaged because Iwo Jima based Mustangs were escorting them.

The cost of taking Iwo was indeed gruesome, but it was not expected to be such a tough target. The IJA was well hidden in caves so the intel on how many were there was poor.

Read the article.

It puts paid to those '15,000' aviators saved by the existence of Iwo Jima as an emergency landing place. The escort ability of the Mustangs was severely hampered by the environment too, resulting in only a handful of escort missions actually taking place.

You're right about the unexpected fanatical resistance on Iwo. They thought 2/3rds of the division was back on Chichi-Jima still...

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

Just a reminder to you, the Allied player, to not look past the bold and daring options to short-circuit the war. These options were very favorably looked upon at the highest levels of the navy (Nimitz, et. al.), not just by the slavering wolves chomping about "killing Japs" (Halsey).

Many in the rank and file also felt this way. In my talks with Eugene Sledge - Peleliu was unnecessary, Philippines was mostly for MacArthur's ego. Okinawa was hitting where it mattered. NO HALF STEPPING. Not one regret for using the bomb.

A friend loaned me Nimitz, Potter's most excellent bio of Nimitz. He regretted two of the invasions as unnecessary (at least in hindsight), and Peleliu was one of them. I have forgotten the other and don't have the book to look it up.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: witpqs
I have forgotten the other

I can see the book made a lasting impression on you. [:'(]

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: witpqs
A friend loaded me Nimitz

Arrgh! I hope ye loaded his gullet with yer Sprague in turn! Avast! [:D]

That's on Tuesday September 19. Waaay early.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: witpqs
A friend loaded me Nimitz

Arrgh! I hope ye loaded his gullet with yer Sprague in turn! Avast! [:D]

That's on Tuesday September 19. Waaay early.

Fixed!

Isn't spell-check supposed to know what you meant to type?! [:D]

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

A great debunking of the rationalizations (mostly after the fact) for capturing Iwo Jima in MHQ. We can probably add this to Palau in terms of unnecessary expenditures:

http://www.historynet.com/worth-the-cos ... vasion.htm

I read in a book that over 15,000 aviators owed their lives to the existence of Iwo Jima as an emergency landing place for their aircraft (mostly B-29s).
And we don't know how many aircraft were NOT damaged because Iwo Jima based Mustangs were escorting them.

The cost of taking Iwo was indeed gruesome, but it was not expected to be such a tough target. The IJA was well hidden in caves so the intel on how many were there was poor.

Read the article.

It puts paid to those '15,000' aviators saved by the existence of Iwo Jima as an emergency landing place. The escort ability of the Mustangs was severely hampered by the environment too, resulting in only a handful of escort missions actually taking place.

You're right about the unexpected fanatical resistance on Iwo. They thought 2/3rds of the division was back on Chichi-Jima still...

i agree with the articles conclusions - although they are a bit vague on the value of "emergency landings" on Iwo... The usual claims makes it seem that a very high percentage of B-29s elected to make a landing on Iwo rather than fly directly back to base - 2251 B-29 landings on Iwo, with a bit over 26000 sorties in ALL of 1945 (and Iwo wasn't invaded until February, with the first emergency landing taking place 2 weeks into the fighting on March 4.)

i suspect the 2251 landings might have included landings going to Japan that enabled the B-29s to carry heavier payloads. This was done for a while until they ran short on bombs and incendiaries - when less payloads were available, it no longer made sense to land and refuel.

i also suspect that a high proportion of the B-29s that did make emergency landings would probably would have been ok had they not landed.* For instance - if you are a pilot and you figure you have a 10% chance of running out of fuel before getting back to base, do you (a) play it safe and land and refuel or (b) risk flying back to base?

If one actually looks at the per mission loss rates, they actually go up a bit in March - April 1945. The data then becomes a bit less clear (for what information i have) since the chart that i have shows the chance of a plane surviving 35 missions or to the end of the war, and after June 24, the planes wouldn't have 35 missions to fly before the war ended.

However, sortie loss rates appear to drop in mid-late May.

EDIT: from Wikipedia: "As for the importance of the island as a landing and refueling site for bombers, Marine Captain Robert Burrell, then a history instructor at the United States Naval Academy, suggested that only a small proportion of the 2,251 landings were for genuine emergencies, the great majority possibly being for minor technical checkups, training, or refueling. According to Burrell,

This justification became prominent only after the Marines seized the island and incurred high casualties. The tragic cost of Operation Detachment pressured veterans, journalists, and commanders to fixate on the most visible rationalization for the battle. The sight of the enormous, costly, and technologically sophisticated B-29 landing on the island's small airfield most clearly linked Iwo Jima to the strategic bombing campaign. As the myths about the flag raisings on Mount Suribachi reached legendary proportions, so did the emergency landing theory in order to justify the need to raise that flag.[71]"

[BBfanboy]

Great explanation rtrapasso - thank you! [:)]

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
Basically I want to fight dirty. Very, very dirty. I want to risk my forces as little as possible. That means standing off Japan , beyond Kamikaze range (or most escorted bomber range) and bomb the daylights out of him. 1st with night bombing , then with escorted daylight bombing. I'd very much like to start 6 months to 18 months earlier than it historically began.

Gentlemen , you may now start throwing your tomatoes! [:D][:D]

Well, you *did* ask for the hurling of the botanical fruits.

I see very little in what you've outlined above that is 'dirty'. I see sensible. I see methodical. I see punctual. It's got 'a nice personality'. It ain't dirty.

I'm not seeing any panache, any bold adventure. No swashbucklers need apply for timely upgrades and training. "Furstest with the mostest"? One out of two ain't bad.

Nimitz was very interested in that Chichi Jima gambit because it was not playing into the Japanese plans for a rolling defense. He didn't want a slogfest, he wanted a coup de main. And he wanted it now. Eventually, he was talked out of it in favor of island hopping in the Southwest Pacific and, later, the Central Pacific. But how cool would it have been to cut Tojo off at his knees in someplace that he wouldn't have expected? Tokyo under considerable 4EB danger from Chichi Jima and surrounds? In 1943? Incredible what that would have done for the trajectory of the war.

You're talking about offensives that you might start sniffing around with in late 1942 or early 1943. If you wait for Essexes you're in mid-1943 at least. If you want to start bombing Japanese mainland cities "6 months" earlier than historical then you're looking late 1944. At the rate this game is (not) progressing, you're-pardon my frankness-unlikely to see it.

I guess we're just different players looking for different things. I'm looking for doing something manifestly different and am willing to fight earlier than I *should* to achieve it. The Allies are capable of a good deal very early in the war. Maybe not in the first month or two, but in early 1942 you should be able to start calling some of the shots, stop retreating wholesale and make a meaningful stand and riposte.

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
Basically I want to fight dirty. Very, very dirty. I want to risk my forces as little as possible. That means standing off Japan , beyond Kamikaze range (or most escorted bomber range) and bomb the daylights out of him. 1st with night bombing , then with escorted daylight bombing. I'd very much like to start 6 months to 18 months earlier than it historically began.

Gentlemen , you may now start throwing your tomatoes! [:D][:D]

Well, you *did* ask for the hurling of the botanical fruits.

I see very little in what you've outlined above that is 'dirty'. I see sensible. I see methodical. I see punctual. It's got 'a nice personality'. It ain't dirty.

I'm not seeing any panache, any bold adventure. No swashbucklers need apply for timely upgrades and training. "Furstest with the mostest"? One out of two ain't bad.

Nimitz was very interested in that Chichi Jima gambit because it was not playing into the Japanese plans for a rolling defense. He didn't want a slogfest, he wanted a coup de main. And he wanted it now. Eventually, he was talked out of it in favor of island hopping in the Southwest Pacific and, later, the Central Pacific. But how cool would it have been to cut Tojo off at his knees in someplace that he wouldn't have expected? Tokyo under considerable 4EB danger from Chichi Jima and surrounds? In 1943? Incredible what that would have done for the trajectory of the war.

You're talking about offensives that you might start sniffing around with in late 1942 or early 1943. If you wait for Essexes you're in mid-1943 at least. If you want to start bombing Japanese mainland cities "6 months" earlier than historical then you're looking late 1944. At the rate this game is (not) progressing, you're-pardon my frankness-unlikely to see it.

I guess we're just different players looking for different things. I'm looking for doing something manifestly different and am willing to fight earlier than I *should* to achieve it. The Allies are capable of a good deal very early in the war. Maybe not in the first month or two, but in early 1942 you should be able to start calling some of the shots, stop retreating wholesale and make a meaningful stand and riposte.

If Goeff does something stupid , then I'll be bold and take advantage of it. You can't plan for opportunity, any more than you can plan on your opponent being stupid. Sometimes your opponent just doesn't make mistakes. I learned that playing against you. If your opponent plays perfectly then al you can do is play methodically.

Napoleon never once followed a plan to conclusion. He wasn't the greatest planner. He was the world's biggest opportunist. I've given you the basic , if all else fails strategy. The basic part of the plan is to have a "base" , load it with resources and look for an opportunity. THEN exploit it.

Eisenhower said that plans were useless but planning is invaluable. I take that to mean studying resources , assets , intelligence and terrain , having a general idea of what you want to do then start looking for shortcuts.

Finesse and elan's not in the planning , but rather in the execution.

When I say "fight dirty" , I mean don't fight fair. Never fight even odds, or anything even close to even odds. Go big or go home. I'm not Robert E. Lee. I'm more like Grant with an occasional bit of inspiration from Sherman.

I'm not going to wait for the Essex's UNLESS I have to. That will mean that I've screwed up and had him turn my ambush.

Geoff's running hither , thither and yuan. He can't do that forever. His ships will need repair , updating and that's when he'll have fewer ships on the line. That's when to hit him with all of mine. I can't predict when. I just have to be ready. [:D]

So's that the best you can throw? [:D] I expected more tomatoes than that. Go to the fruit store and re-arm. [:D]

[Chickenboy]

Just don't get so caught up in the 'upgrading and getting ready' that you miss the fleeting glimpses at opportunity. It is very difficult to be in a position to spring a trap when you're tied up in port for this reason or that. If Geoff is flitting about swatting at gnats, bite off a piece of him while you can! This will require an aggressive posture for a counterattack. Something that will be impossible or impractical back in comfy safe harbors.

I'll fight against even odds if I have to. If I could fight against even odds as the Allies, that could work to my advantage now rather than waiting until later, as my early resistance may give pause to his offensive thrusts.

I'm playing against the AI now as...GASP...the Allies!

In April 1942, I'm having a blast with the game. While a goodly number of my ships are due (or overdue!) for upgrades, I've held up the Japanese advance at Singapore, Clark Field, Manila, Bataan and Rabaul. Java, Sumatra and the rest of the Southern DEI are completely intact now. I've fought in 150,000 supplies to Manila and the central Philippines, ensuring they hang on-probably for the duration. The IJNAF and IJAAF have been largely gutted, 2/3 of KB is sunk and half the Japanese high quality CAs are gone. I'm planning for a late 1942 recapture of Luzon and a January 1, 1943 Allied autovictory.

Sure, some of it is due to AI stupidity, but much of the gains are by fighting forward and employing tools in strange places that most Allied players fear to tread. A "Sir Robin" approach is anathema to fighting back judiciously in the early months. You can't fight 'em if you're not there. You can't simultaneously attack and fall back to preserve your force.

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Just don't get so caught up in the 'upgrading and getting ready' that you miss the fleeting glimpses at opportunity. It is very difficult to be in a position to spring a trap when you're tied up in port for this reason or that. If Geoff is flitting about swatting at gnats, bite off a piece of him while you can! This will require an aggressive posture for a counterattack. Something that will be impossible or impractical back in comfy safe harbors.

I'll fight against even odds if I have to. If I could fight against even odds as the Allies, that could work to my advantage now rather than waiting until later, as my early resistance may give pause to his offensive thrusts.

I'm playing against the AI now as...GASP...the Allies!

In April 1942, I'm having a blast with the game. While a goodly number of my ships are due (or overdue!) for upgrades, I've held up the Japanese advance at Singapore, Clark Field, Manila, Bataan and Rabaul. Java, Sumatra and the rest of the Southern DEI are completely intact now. I've fought in 150,000 supplies to Manila and the central Philippines, ensuring they hang on-probably for the duration. The IJNAF and IJAAF have been largely gutted, 2/3 of KB is sunk and half the Japanese high quality CAs are gone. I'm planning for a late 1942 recapture of Luzon and a January 1, 1943 Allied autovictory.

Sure, some of it is due to AI stupidity, but much of the gains are by fighting forward and employing tools in strange places that most Allied players fear to tread. A "Sir Robin" approach is anathema to fighting back judiciously in the early months. You can't fight 'em if you're not there. You can't simultaneously attack and fall back to preserve your force.

Yeah I'm playing against the AI in my "Richardson's War Scenario". I'm having a great deal of fun smacking the AI around in that game. [:D]

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
Basically I want to fight dirty. Very, very dirty. I want to risk my forces as little as possible. That means standing off Japan , beyond Kamikaze range (or most escorted bomber range) and bomb the daylights out of him. 1st with night bombing , then with escorted daylight bombing. I'd very much like to start 6 months to 18 months earlier than it historically began.

Gentlemen , you may now start throwing your tomatoes! [:D][:D]

Well, you *did* ask for the hurling of the botanical fruits.

I see very little in what you've outlined above that is 'dirty'. I see sensible. I see methodical. I see punctual. It's got 'a nice personality'. It ain't dirty.

I'm not seeing any panache, any bold adventure. No swashbucklers need apply for timely upgrades and training. "Furstest with the mostest"? One out of two ain't bad.

Nimitz was very interested in that Chichi Jima gambit because it was not playing into the Japanese plans for a rolling defense. He didn't want a slogfest, he wanted a coup de main. And he wanted it now. Eventually, he was talked out of it in favor of island hopping in the Southwest Pacific and, later, the Central Pacific. But how cool would it have been to cut Tojo off at his knees in someplace that he wouldn't have expected? Tokyo under considerable 4EB danger from Chichi Jima and surrounds? In 1943? Incredible what that would have done for the trajectory of the war.

You're talking about offensives that you might start sniffing around with in late 1942 or early 1943. If you wait for Essexes you're in mid-1943 at least. If you want to start bombing Japanese mainland cities "6 months" earlier than historical then you're looking late 1944. At the rate this game is (not) progressing, you're-pardon my frankness-unlikely to see it.

I guess we're just different players looking for different things. I'm looking for doing something manifestly different and am willing to fight earlier than I *should* to achieve it. The Allies are capable of a good deal very early in the war. Maybe not in the first month or two, but in early 1942 you should be able to start calling some of the shots, stop retreating wholesale and make a meaningful stand and riposte.

If Goeff does something stupid , then I'll be bold and take advantage of it. You can't plan for opportunity, any more than you can plan on your opponent being stupid. Sometimes your opponent just doesn't make mistakes. I learned that playing against you. If your opponent plays perfectly then al you can do is play methodically.

Napoleon never once followed a plan to conclusion. He wasn't the greatest planner. He was the world's biggest opportunist. I've given you the basic , if all else fails strategy. The basic part of the plan is to have a "base" , load it with resources and look for an opportunity. THEN exploit it.

Eisenhower said that plans were useless but planning is invaluable. I take that to mean studying resources , assets , intelligence and terrain , having a general idea of what you want to do then start looking for shortcuts.

Finesse and elan's not in the planning , but rather in the execution.

When I say "fight dirty" , I mean don't fight fair. Never fight even odds, or anything even close to even odds. Go big or go home. I'm not Robert E. Lee. I'm more like Grant with an occasional bit of inspiration from Sherman.

'Never give a sucker an even break.' - Admiral I-can't-be-bothered-to-look-up-his-name.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Zorch
'Never give a sucker an even break.' - Admiral I-can't-be-bothered-to-look-up-his-name.

Admiral of the Circus Seas - P T Barnum.

[rustysi]

Gentlemen , you may now start throwing your tomatoes!

No tomatoes to throw. Sound strategy is just that sound strategy. I don't think the Allies can win the war in '42. They can however make it much more costly to win if they 'muck' things up in that time period. Steve if I were you I would 'stick to my guns' and proceed. Of course I imagine you will take advantage of any opportunities that may present themselves along the way.

Always keep in mind that time is on your side. When US production hits its stride your force will be overwhelming and there ain't one thing Japan can do about it.

[BillBrown]

What happened to the lizard?

[Chickenboy]

Meh.