The Gamiest Game in Town - EL (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
Don't forget some night naval torpedo runs...they are within range if you have the squadron(s). Start depleting his ammunition.

Night Naval Attacks of any form will deplete his AA ...

[el lobo]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

If the hits are DC's, generally, the sub has to go home after the 2nd one ... so 12 hits ... maybe 2 or 3 subs have RTB. a good thing.

Losing Jakes already ... so he is LRCAPing his advance TF's ... that first TF is 10 hexes out from Saipan, 11 from Guam.

A good tactic is to be sure you have your subs in the same hex that you attack. They will recover a LOT of pilots ...

Sorry, I should be more precise.

The hits to which I was referring are from Judys, Jills, and Kates. All my TBs are set to ASW but I guess the DBs didn't want them to have all of the fun. However some of the reported hits are multiple.

I just checked Ships Sunk and the SS Herring shows a sunk by a 250 kg bomb this turn. I hope that stays.

Only had one Allied sub hit with one DC this turn.

I am also losing Bettys, Mavises and an occasional Judy-C to CAP. This turn I lost a Betty at 117,95 which is the large flotilla ten hexes east of Guam.

Right now I have six subs patrolling just east of the Marianas. I will add some more.

Thanks.

[el lobo]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

If you are going all in then this is the time for all your midget subs and whatever MTB you have. 10,000+ supply and a level 1 port (undamaged) are the requirements. You want to create them the day before you use them.

If you have MGB, I recommend forming them at Tokyo and converting them to MTB status for later use.

Mines and CD guns....wherever...they will take a toll on the minesweepers. Sub dropped mines are great, powerful and strong.

+1 on saving your pilots.

Move some AR/AD/AS/AKE/AG and Naval Support to the Bonins & Ulithi. Might save some ships that way. Oilers and and fuel there too. Japanese CV run out of fuel so darn fast.

Don't forget some night naval torpedo runs...they are within range if you have the squadron(s). Start depleting his ammunition.

Thanks Lowpe.

I have four MG/TB available. The are now on their way to Tokyo. Probably to late for this party. Midget Subs! Now we are having fun. I'll give them a try.

I have two CMs at Guam ready to lay and scoot.

At Iwo I have five AOs, six AKEs, and two AGs. In the group of TFs sitting at Agrihan waiting to make a dash to Iwo are two ASs and another AKE. I have two ADs on the way to Iwo, three-four days out.

I have eighty Naval Support at Iwo with another 240 unloading tomorrow.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: el lobo

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

If the hits are DC's, generally, the sub has to go home after the 2nd one ... so 12 hits ... maybe 2 or 3 subs have RTB. a good thing.

Losing Jakes already ... so he is LRCAPing his advance TF's ... that first TF is 10 hexes out from Saipan, 11 from Guam.

A good tactic is to be sure you have your subs in the same hex that you attack. They will recover a LOT of pilots ...

Sorry, I should be more precise.

The hits to which I was referring are from Judys, Jills, and Kates. All my TBs are set to ASW but I guess the DBs didn't want them to have all of the fun. However some of the reported hits are multiple.

I just checked Ships Sunk and the SS Herring shows a sunk by a 250 kg bomb this turn. I hope that stays.

Only had one Allied sub hit with one DC this turn.

I am also losing Bettys, Mavises and an occasional Judy-C to CAP. This turn I lost a Betty at 117,95 which is the large flotilla ten hexes east of Guam.

Right now I have six subs patrolling just east of the Marianas. I will add some more.

Thanks.

Ahh, 250kg bombs are about equivalent to DC for damage, so same estimate. You always want sunk, but for today, OOS will count just as good.

[Lowpe]

Careful you don't exhaust, damage, tire your strike planes on the KB prior to the big days ahead. Judy can be a bear to repair.

[el lobo]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Careful you don't exhaust, damage, tire your strike planes on the KB prior to the big days ahead. Judy can be a bear to repair.

I hear you, but if I back them off, more of this is going to happen.

Between a rock and a hard place.

[PaxMondo]

50 fewer planes in the KB ... [:@]

Depending upon her sailing speed and damage, I would sail her to Iwo, off load her planes (A6M for sure) and send them back into the fight ... she won't need any planes for a while ...

[Lowpe]

Ouch. Sometimes the damage is really low....maybe?

[PaxMondo]

Junyo class? take a miracle. CVE with window-dressing. I've almost had them sink on speed runs they are so frail ... [:D][:D][:D]

[Lowpe]

Just looking at the glass half full!

How is the Japanese massing going? How much will you have assembled?

[PaxMondo]

yeah, but i can still dream of a KB full of Taiho and Shokaku class instead of Junyo and Zuiho!

[:D][:D][:D]
[&o][&o][&o]
[8|][8|][8|]

[PaxMondo]

How many LB fighters do you have there now? 1st line fighters ... Frank, Tojo, George/Jack? Then what about anti-ship bombers? Jill/Judy are far and away the best. Helen/Sally will do, but even with the right skill pilots they don't work nearly as well as Jill/Judy for me. Lilly are ok against all soft targets ... Frances can work wonders at night if you have them, if not Netties are great night NavAttack ... burn a lot of AA, and with high EXP crews you can and will get hits ...

[el lobo]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

How is the Japanese massing going? How much will you have assembled?

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

How many LB fighters do you have there now? 1st line fighters ... Frank, Tojo, George/Jack? Then what about anti-ship bombers? Jill/Judy are far and away the best. Helen/Sally will do, but even with the right skill pilots they don't work nearly as well as Jill/Judy for me. Lilly are ok against all soft targets ... Frances can work wonders at night if you have them, if not Netties are great night NavAttack ... burn a lot of AA, and with high EXP crews you can and will get hits ...

On the Marianas I have three Zero groups, two Kate one Judy unit, one Tojo unit, three Betty units and some search. My limitation is Aviation Support. I have enough for one, maybe two more units. This wasn't planed this way but Junyo's units will go here.

On the Bonins I have two Zero units, a Kate unit, Judy unit, a Nell unit, a Betty unit, an Ann unit, and some search.

At Yokohama I have a Zero unit, a Val unit and a Tojo unit.

I have not considered putting Georges or Jacks (no Franks yet) out on these islands because of their SR and if I gather correctly, Lowpe does not do this either. I could have some over here in a couple of days, but I don't know. It seems like with these guys you would reach the point of diminishing returns rather quickly.

Lowpe, I am not sure if this answers your question.

Thanks Guys.

[adarbrauner]

I'm reading last developments of this AAR with great interest.

I wan't employ Jakes on submarines, NEVER! if it does not have any historical plausibility.

What i was most disturbed of, is the implication that VERY high NavSearch is able to spot submarines regardless of hight (as it may result from the first screenshots). Indeed?

El Lobo, you can put on a great and much proficous fight here! Your naval search and anticipated detection were great, gold worth, as well as fortification and preparation of the outpost islands.

My defensive strategy would be to have the greatest number of available airfields on all the islands.

I don't think he can knock down all of them.

My prediction is that Rio is going to loose a great, unsustainable number of planes. He cannot avoid sweeping-bombarding your airfields there, this shall cost him very darely.
I'd wait for him to strike first...and second and third possibly...
He's going to loose this air battle, almost for sure.

You can rotate and replenish from HI, he cannot.

Gees, this is summer 1943, is US any close to the number of carriers needed for an on- all frontal onslaught?!!?, in no way. Maybe Rio counted on some surprise, or to find you unbalanced?

Maybe this is all a big ruse and deceptive manouver, real objective somewhere else, but where, how this possible?

Difficult for me to understand Rio here....


P.S. added: US sub threat is disturbing, but you seem having deployed great ASW defense and screening, and in any case you've plenty of airbase where to redeploy if needed.

2nd P.S.: maybe he (Rio) is counting on the superiority of the Hellcat to break through and put down opposition?


He may count on naval bombarding to neutralize the airfields, and here midgets and mines may come in help (BTW, how many old BattleWagons is he left?).
Even so, I still see this as an excessive risk by Rio's side.

[adarbrauner]

I'd say even PURE FOLLY by allies side and Command.

Days shall say

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: el lobo

At Yokohama I have a Zero unit, a Val unit and a Tojo unit.

I have not considered putting Georges or Jacks (no Franks yet) out on these islands because of their SR and if I gather correctly, Lowpe does not do this either.

Thanks Guys. [/size]

For every rule there is a time to break them. When I was attacked in the Marianas I used all my
Georges, which was the only fighter I had at the time (no Frank).

For you to win this fight you will need everything. I think the only advanced fighter you have is George right now?

Until he takes an island, and repairs the runway, the Allies are limited to Hellcats and F4Fs from a limited source. But once a base is taken, then the Corsairs, Jugs and Lightning will appear. No base, no rearming of ships. No PT boats.

You have high forts, but there are a lot of bases to cover, it is early, and I suspect the Allies have nearly perfect information from SigInt.

Communication is imperfect, so I don't know what your goals are. If you want to hit the invasion beach with a massed KB strike that is one thing. If you are trying to stop him, prevent bases from falling that is another. Plus everything in between and beyond those two aspirations.

When I was attacked in like manner, I believe I had stuffed the Marianas with over 800 planes and it wasn't nearly enough. The Allies had used SigInt to attack my weakest bases...and avoided the strong bases for the entire game. You are in a different position than me in that you have the KB present, but I have to tell you the Islands are very vulnerable to surface bombardments, and they are in a line making naval strikes difficult to coordinate.

All I can say is you should be trying to bleed them every day you can. I wouldn't hesitate to race in sacrificial three destroyer squadrons now (I am very fuzzy at where everything is). Slow him down, expend his ammo, eat up his torpedoes, absorb his plane strikes, get his ships to react, collide, buy time for you to mass more planes, ships, and troops in the Marianas. Night strikes. Count hexes and pick off his SAGs that react forward to your destroyers. Daytime long distance torpedo strikes at high altitude escorted by your best fighters (poor mans cv sweep), massed I boat attacks (I would send in everything all at once).

The early sacrificial attacks will aid the later attacks, and there is always hope something gets thru.

To the degree you use some of the tactics, or not, well that is a function of what your goals are and as I said I am unclear on them, as well, really on the tactical situation. I can't stress how much I don't know: pilot training, planes, pools, ground troops, supply levels, naval concentration, artillery, mines, cd guns, supply, prep levels, HQs. All of this lack of knowledge really hamstrings all my suggestions.

Everybody that offers advice is using a ton of assumptions that may or may not be true.

However, to be honest, instead of the Allies being bleeded as they approach on a very easily identified axis, it is Japan that had a Carrier drop out. Force preservation is not a goal with the Allies at least with their sub fleet.

This fight will take all of your JFB cunning, and planning no matter what your goals are.

[Lowpe]

Another AAR you can read, about the 1943 Allied offensive would be CR and John III, where the Allies invaded Sumatra and ultimately Japan forced them off after a horrendously long and grueling campaign.

I believe the Allies lost many divisions, but they are still back on the offensive in mid 1944 having recently taken Manila.

To say this attack is pure folly on the Allies part is not correct.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: el lobo

At Yokohama I have a Zero unit, a Val unit and a Tojo unit.

I have not considered putting Georges or Jacks (no Franks yet) out on these islands because of their SR and if I gather correctly, Lowpe does not do this either.

Thanks Guys. [/size]

For every rule there is a time to break them. When I was attacked in the Marianas I used all my
Georges, which was the only fighter I had at the time (no Frank).

For you to win this fight you will need everything. I think the only advanced fighter you have is George right now?

Until he takes an island, and repairs the runway, the Allies are limited to Hellcats and F4Fs from a limited source. But once a base is taken, then the Corsairs, Jugs and Lightning will appear. No base, no rearming of ships. No PT boats.

You have high forts, but there are a lot of bases to cover, it is early, and I suspect the Allies have nearly perfect information from SigInt.

Communication is imperfect, so I don't know what your goals are. If you want to hit the invasion beach with a massed KB strike that is one thing. If you are trying to stop him, prevent bases from falling that is another. Plus everything in between and beyond those two aspirations.

When I was attacked in like manner, I believe I had stuffed the Marianas with over 800 planes and it wasn't nearly enough. The Allies had used SigInt to attack my weakest bases...and avoided the strong bases for the entire game. You are in a different position than me in that you have the KB present, but I have to tell you the Islands are very vulnerable to surface bombardments, and they are in a line making naval strikes difficult to coordinate.

All I can say is you should be trying to bleed them every day you can. I wouldn't hesitate to race in sacrificial three destroyer squadrons now (I am very fuzzy at where everything is). Slow him down, expend his ammo, eat up his torpedoes, absorb his plane strikes, get his ships to react, collide, buy time for you to mass more planes, ships, and troops in the Marianas. Night strikes. Count hexes and pick off his SAGs that react forward to your destroyers. Daytime long distance torpedo strikes at high altitude escorted by your best fighters (poor mans cv sweep), massed I boat attacks (I would send in everything all at once).

The early sacrificial attacks will aid the later attacks, and there is always hope something gets thru.

To the degree you use some of the tactics, or not, well that is a function of what your goals are and as I said I am unclear on them, as well, really on the tactical situation. I can't stress how much I don't know: pilot training, planes, pools, ground troops, supply levels, naval concentration, artillery, mines, cd guns, supply, prep levels, HQs. All of this lack of knowledge really hamstrings all my suggestions.

Everybody that offers advice is using a ton of assumptions that may or may not be true.

However, to be honest, instead of the Allies being bleeded as they approach on a very easily identified axis, it is Japan that had a Carrier drop out. Force preservation is not a goal with the Allies at least with their sub fleet.

This fight will take all of your JFB cunning, and planning no matter what your goals are.

+1

Either you are in or you are not. It may be too late now to be in ... it appears you have something like ~250 aircraft LBA ... far too few to hold against the allied forces coming. As for AV, just like in the early war, you have no choice but to overstack. The risks are great, you will likely have to abandon a fair number of aircraft, but ...

The way the allies play is to amass everything they have and then strike. The IJ players tend to try to hold everything, which plays into the allied plan. To counter the allies, the IJ has no choice but to either match the allies or cede the field (they can nip at the edges as they cede, but cede they will). Any other choice results in huge losses.

I was not exagerating what was needed for LBA to hold the marianas... 20 airgroups minimum, with at least 15 more in the Bonins to cycle in. The allies have that much massed against you. It means stripping almost every other theatre bare ... the risk involved with choosing to fight

or

you choose to blood their nose a bit, but cede the marianas to them and all of the units therein. Yes, there are some fights, but the end is already determined. Truk is also marginalized, etc... sadly in terms of strategy there is very little middle ground.

As lowpe states, we on the sidelines have imperfect intel, in all cases do not know your full intentions, and of course it is your game. We do not have to live with outcomes.

Every decision has ramifications, but do not think that any fight is final.

Personally, I hate having to fight in the Marianans (like Burma, I hate it. The terrain is terrible and fraught with challenges, in this case the layout of the isles and proximity to other islands). However, in this case, he is coming far too early in my opinion. Right now, as in every turn, you need to evaluate and decide. My caution is to not underestimate what is needed to accomplish your goals. IJ players art this point tend to over estimate what they can do based upon 1942 results in battles. This is 43 and the allies are far stronger on a unit basis.

Based upon what you have shared, you have only enough assets in place to at best bloody his nose ... and only with luck. As lowpe states, you have only parity in air power now ... once he takes a base, he will have superiority within 2 days on numbers alone ignoring plane quality.

BTW: choosing to bloody his nose means far different tactics than what has been already discussed ... KB needs to stay farther afield, come in for a strike and then move back out ... that would be a typical tactic. The skill is to choose when to move in, you have to anticipate that carefully 1 or 2 days in advance (just like everything else in this game, the ability to anticipate is crucial).

[Lowpe]

Worst case, you are caught off guard and decide to cede the battleground.

You want to fly splinters of your divisions, cd gun units that aren't static out, to avoid a huge pp and delay in rebuilding them.

Allies will now threaten Hokkaido, Bonins, Ulithi, Luzon area.

B29 groups arrive in 2/44...months ahead of your Army fighter expansion, Nick D NF normal date, AA upgrades and reinforcements.

Allied long legged recon will start snooping on the HI. He will see plane builds, task forces, etc. Your plane r&d will be in serious jeopardy...

The air war over the HI will most likely be greatly accelerated. When the Frank A comes online in a month, you need 500+ production a month. You will need every fighter, fighter bomber, rufe and rex and pete, irving-s.

Give the Allies a month to clean up Marianas to the point they can stage more forward attacks, and they will do the same thing again at Hokkaido, Bonins, Ulithi and west to Luzon after 2 months prep.

You will be forced to keep the KB near the Bonins...giving the Allies almost a free hand to attack SRA etc if they elect to do so. However, with such a focus on the Marianas, the Allies may ignore everywhere but Burma.

But the game isn't over, turtle hard and mass for the next invasion. Draw a line 20 hexes around the HI and really concentrate on that. Delay everywhere else. Finish taking China. Aggressively bleed the Allied air forces everywhere you can. You still have the KB, and that can be a powerful delaying force, especially if you get in good alpha strike on his invasion and keep your forces intact.

That is the cede option and how it plays out I think...not the end of the world. Fight on your terms, not his.

Just realize everything grows. If you need the KB plus 1000 planes to defend the Marianas now, then to defend Hokkaido you will need 1500 planes plus, plus the KB. Allied growth is relentless.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Worst case, you are caught off guard and decide to cede the battleground.

You want to fly splinters of your divisions, cd gun units that aren't static out, to avoid a huge pp and delay in rebuilding them.

Allies will now threaten Hokkaido, Bonins, Ulithi, Luzon area.

B29 groups arrive in 2/44...months ahead of your Army fighter expansion, Nick D NF normal date, AA upgrades and reinforcements.

Allied long legged recon will start snooping on the HI. He will see plane builds, task forces, etc. Your plane r&d will be in serious jeopardy...

The air war over the HI will most likely be greatly accelerated. When the Frank A comes online in a month, you need 500+ production a month. You will need every fighter, fighter bomber, rufe and rex and pete, irving-s.

Give the Allies a month to clean up Marianas to the point they can stage more forward attacks, and they will do the same thing again at Hokkaido, Bonins, Ulithi and west to Luzon after 2 months prep.

You will be forced to keep the KB near the Bonins...giving the Allies almost a free hand to attack SRA etc if they elect to do so. However, with such a focus on the Marianas, the Allies may ignore everywhere but Burma.

But the game isn't over, turtle hard and mass for the next invasion. Draw a line 20 hexes around the HI and really concentrate on that. Delay everywhere else. Finish taking China. Aggressively bleed the Allied air forces everywhere you can. You still have the KB, and that can be a powerful delaying force, especially if you get in good alpha strike on his invasion and keep your forces intact.

That is the cede option and how it plays out I think...not the end of the world. Fight on your terms, not his.

Just realize everything grows. If you need the KB plus 1000 planes to defend the Marianas now, then to defend Hokkaido you will need 1500 planes plus, plus the KB. Allied growth is relentless.

+1