The Gamiest Game in Town - EL (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: el lobo


Rio and I have been discussing this attack, just the strategy of it, and how he has been planing this since day one. However he let slip the fact that he has taken precautions to guard against the KB. He said that we could discuss that latter or after the war. But I think we can pretty much figure it out. Pax alluded to it earlier, that he may load his ships with fighters. If you look at the CVE Prince William above, she had all fighters.

Which means that you are correct in that he is more vulnerable to surface attacks.

It doesn't confirm the guess about the fighter loads, as at this point having your CVE's overstocked with fighters for re-stocking the CV's would be prudent. But, he is getting a lot of advice. he has a sharp edge in number of posts and I have noted some very good player names there.

Just remember; every tactic in the game has a counter. In this aspect, it is all about intel. You need to consider what he might do, how you would counter, AND how will you detect what tactic he is using so that you employ the correct counter.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: el lobo


Rio and I have been discussing this attack, just the strategy of it, and how he has been planing this since day one. However he let slip the fact that he has taken precautions to guard against the KB. He said that we could discuss that latter or after the war. But I think we can pretty much figure it out. Pax alluded to it earlier, that he may load his ships with fighters. If you look at the CVE Prince William above, she had all fighters.

Which means that you are correct in that he is more vulnerable to surface attacks.

It doesn't confirm the guess about the fighter loads, as at this point having your CVE's overstocked with fighters for re-stocking the CV's would be prudent. But, he is getting a lot of advice. he has a sharp edge in number of posts and I have noted some very good player names there.

Just remember; every tactic in the game has a counter. In this aspect, it is all about intel. You need to consider what he might do, how you would counter, AND how will you detect what tactic he is using so that you employ the correct counter.

If you check my AAR with Jocke, you can see how I countered an invasion force comprised of a heavily fighter based Carrier escort with surprisingly light Japanese forces. It can be done! Planning and Recon! Page 106 (shameless plug[;)])

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: el lobo


Rio and I have been discussing this attack, just the strategy of it, and how he has been planing this since day one. However he let slip the fact that he has taken precautions to guard against the KB. He said that we could discuss that latter or after the war. But I think we can pretty much figure it out. Pax alluded to it earlier, that he may load his ships with fighters. If you look at the CVE Prince William above, she had all fighters.

Which means that you are correct in that he is more vulnerable to surface attacks.

It doesn't confirm the guess about the fighter loads, as at this point having your CVE's overstocked with fighters for re-stocking the CV's would be prudent. But, he is getting a lot of advice. he has a sharp edge in number of posts and I have noted some very good player names there.

Just remember; every tactic in the game has a counter. In this aspect, it is all about intel. You need to consider what he might do, how you would counter, AND how will you detect what tactic he is using so that you employ the correct counter.

If you check my AAR with Jocke, you can see how I countered an invasion force comprised of a heavily fighter based Carrier escort with surprisingly light Japanese forces. It can be done! Planning and Recon! Page 106 (shameless plug[;)])

Not shameless at all. He needs your references ... you're about the only PBEM consultant he has against the +8 that Rio has in his thread.
I don't have as much advice about tactics as AI and PBEM really differ there.

[el lobo]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

It doesn't confirm the guess about the fighter loads, as at this point having your CVE's overstocked with fighters for re-stocking the CV's would be prudent.

You are correct, I should not make this assumption.

[el lobo]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

If you check my AAR with Jocke, you can see how I countered an invasion force comprised of a heavily fighter based Carrier escort with surprisingly light Japanese forces. It can be done! Planning and Recon! Page 106 (shameless plug[;)])

Not shameless at all. He needs your references ... you're about the only PBEM consultant he has against the +8 that Rio has in his thread.
I don't have as much advice about tactics as AI and PBEM really differ there.

I agree 100%. The ironic part is that your AAR is the only one you do not need to plug as it is one on which I keep-up, I left off at page 105 a couple of days ago.

It is a great game and your AARs are very informative. Can I assume that you are talking about the Kodiak invasion and the CL Yubari (not at Rabaul)? Thanks for the photos of the settings, just what I need.

[el lobo]

PACIFIC Jun 30, 1943 Turn 571

Recon the hard way, but look what they found.

[el lobo]

PRODUCTION Jun 30, 1943 Turn 571

The Frank A is in production and one unit upgraded and filling-out.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: el lobo
Thanks for the photos of the settings, just what I need.
[/size]

That "Low" threat setting triggers how quickly Japan retreats depending upon the relative strength of the fleets. Very important...it doesn't mean that they will run and turn tail and avoid engagements. It does mean that your ships are very likely to live to fight another day usually after delivering a Long Lance attack.

"Safer, Safest" lets your ships react away from air threats...it is interesting that this normally only occurs in the 2nd movement phase...so for example if you were close enough (within 7-9 hexes) you can flank speed run to where you expect enemy carriers to be for a night time engagement, and then they will hopefully react into them...if not, and you have some DL, they will react away at flank speed from the air threat.

Of course this depends also on commander aggressiveness.

Care needs to be taken in using them...you can see their impact in course selection and sometimes this will give you some more intel to make decisions. If blindly used, the ships can select super strange routes that will run them out of fuel.

[el lobo]

Thanks again.

I've looked at the Manual and the Game Data Base. I have read about the effects of the Long Lance.

How can I tell if the ship is carrying these? Are they a specific model?

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: el lobo
Thanks for the photos of the settings, just what I need.
[/size]

That "Low" threat setting triggers how quickly Japan retreats depending upon the relative strength of the fleets. Very important...it doesn't mean that they will run and turn tail and avoid engagements. It does mean that your ships are very likely to live to fight another day usually after delivering a Long Lance attack.

"Safer, Safest" lets your ships react away from air threats...it is interesting that this normally only occurs in the 2nd movement phase...so for example if you were close enough (within 7-9 hexes) you can flank speed run to where you expect enemy carriers to be for a night time engagement, and then they will hopefully react into them...if not, and you have some DL, they will react away at flank speed from the air threat.

Of course this depends also on commander aggressiveness.

Care needs to be taken in using them...you can see their impact in course selection and sometimes this will give you some more intel to make decisions. If blindly used, the ships can select super strange routes that will run them out of fuel.

In addition to this, it can also bite the Allies. About the only serious success I had in 1945 in opposing a major Allied invasion came when I got some DD's in amongst the Allied CV fleet during the night.

While the actual combat was solidly inconclusive, the Allied settings ended up causing the Allied CV's to decide to return home. Cue daybreak, when massed Japanese air power could strike at a vastly reduced CAP.

It's well worth the risk of the smaller ships (MGBs, MTB's, SC, PB, E) in small single or double ship TF's to try and infiltrate the Allies zone of operations, just to disrupt operations. Given the limited area of operation, even if you don't sink anything, you're making the Allied ships burn up OPS points.

I'd save the actual warships for more serious ventures, however.

Given the particulars of your current situation, I'd see if you couldn't disrupt landing operations. Even if you don't actually sink anything, you'll be making his warships use up fuel and ammo, and eating up their OPS points.

The E-class type ships in particular get a hounarble mention from me, in this role. While they're dead meat to any frontline Allied ships, they carry 12cm guns for the most part, and if they run in to a Allied amphib TF, they can do respectable work. I even recall a few engagements where the E's put some nice holes in CVE's.

Something worth thinking about, at any rate.

[Lowpe]

M-M is referring to the time honored and proven tactic of Holistic Japan.[:)] You cannot rely upon one off attacks...Japan's units all have to work together.

But rather...plentiful night naval search, surface raiders, night aerial naval attacks, mines, midgets, CD and DP guns, on the beach art/eng/inf/aa/hq/inf, forts, daytime aerial search, heavily escorted attacks set to different ranges and altitudes, big targeted kb strike, hefty LRCAP traps, I and R boats, etc., etc., etc.

The base has to hold...to bleed the Allies...to engage their surface ships after they bombarded...to send the KB in around on a fish hook to devastate retreating ships and the line of supply...oilers/merchants ready to refuel after a flank run. To strike a depleted deathstar or ships landing reinforcements or supplies.

Reserve troops ready to be flown in (rarely if CVs are present) or fast transported in. Counter invasion.

Think what you could have accomplished at the Marianas if your ground troops held for 10 days. A month.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

M-M is referring to the time honored and proven tactic of Holistic Japan.[:)] You cannot rely upon one off attacks...Japan's units all have to work together.

But rather...plentiful night naval search, surface raiders, night aerial naval attacks, mines, midgets, CD and DP guns, on the beach art/eng/inf/aa/hq/inf, forts, daytime aerial search, heavily escorted attacks set to different ranges and altitudes, big targeted kb strike, hefty LRCAP traps, I and R boats, etc., etc., etc.

The base has to hold...to bleed the Allies...to engage their surface ships after they bombarded...to send the KB in around on a fish hook to devastate retreating ships and the line of supply...oilers/merchants ready to refuel after a flank run. To strike a depleted deathstar or ships landing reinforcements or supplies.

Reserve troops ready to be flown in (rarely if CVs are present) or fast transported in. Counter invasion.

Think what you could have accomplished at the Marianas if your ground troops held for 10 days. A month.

Holistic Japan, I like that. Succinct way of describing the concept.

I think the key component of any successful Japanese defence is that the defenders need to hold out for longer than a week. It just opens up so much more scope for counter strikes from Japan, as well as making the initial invasion that much more demanding.

My rule of thumb is that any base you want to defend should be held by enough troops that would require at least two Allied divisions to take. This basically means that the Allies need to mount a massive operation for every invasion - there are no cheap moves.

[Bif1961]

Type 93 Torpedo is the Long Lance, most of those dropped by torpedo planes is the Type 91

[el lobo]

Thanks Lowpe and MM.

This is some great stuff and I hope to use it. I was going to say, use it soon, but apparently Rio has left the room.

My recon was a little week the last couple of days as I was switching units and getting recon subs back into place so I was not sure, but it looks like the Betty intercept above was the whole enchilada moving back.

[el lobo]

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

Type 93 Torpedo is the Long Lance, most of those dropped by torpedo planes is the Type 91

Thanks Bif1961. That will help me sort some ships.

And welcome.

[el lobo]

PACIFIC Jul 1, 1943 Turn 572

Tough ship, but Rio confirmed that she went down.

[el lobo]

PACIFIC Jul 2, 1943 Turn 573

Subs gone also. Interesting.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

M-M is referring to the time honored and proven tactic of Holistic Japan.[:)] You cannot rely upon one off attacks...Japan's units all have to work together.

But rather...plentiful night naval search, surface raiders, night aerial naval attacks, mines, midgets, CD and DP guns, on the beach art/eng/inf/aa/hq/inf, forts, daytime aerial search, heavily escorted attacks set to different ranges and altitudes, big targeted kb strike, hefty LRCAP traps, I and R boats, etc., etc., etc.

The base has to hold...to bleed the Allies...to engage their surface ships after they bombarded...to send the KB in around on a fish hook to devastate retreating ships and the line of supply...oilers/merchants ready to refuel after a flank run. To strike a depleted deathstar or ships landing reinforcements or supplies.

Reserve troops ready to be flown in (rarely if CVs are present) or fast transported in. Counter invasion.

Think what you could have accomplished at the Marianas if your ground troops held for 10 days. A month.

+1

read PzB's AAR ... required reading for all players. He illustrated most of these quire well in his game against Andy Mac ...

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

M-M is referring to the time honored and proven tactic of Holistic Japan.[:)] You cannot rely upon one off attacks...Japan's units all have to work together.

But rather...plentiful night naval search, surface raiders, night aerial naval attacks, mines, midgets, CD and DP guns, on the beach art/eng/inf/aa/hq/inf, forts, daytime aerial search, heavily escorted attacks set to different ranges and altitudes, big targeted kb strike, hefty LRCAP traps, I and R boats, etc., etc., etc.

The base has to hold...to bleed the Allies...to engage their surface ships after they bombarded...to send the KB in around on a fish hook to devastate retreating ships and the line of supply...oilers/merchants ready to refuel after a flank run. To strike a depleted deathstar or ships landing reinforcements or supplies.

Reserve troops ready to be flown in (rarely if CVs are present) or fast transported in. Counter invasion.

Think what you could have accomplished at the Marianas if your ground troops held for 10 days. A month.

Holistic Japan, I like that. Succinct way of describing the concept.

I think the key component of any successful Japanese defence is that the defenders need to hold out for longer than a week. It just opens up so much more scope for counter strikes from Japan, as well as making the initial invasion that much more demanding.

My rule of thumb is that any base you want to defend should be held by enough troops that would require at least two Allied divisions to take. This basically means that the Allies need to mount a massive operation for every invasion - there are no cheap moves.

That doesn't mean the original defenders holding a week. They only need to hold on until your reinforcements arrive ... if done right, that can be 3 days ...

[el lobo]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Re-read PzB's AAR ... required reading for all players. He illustrated most of these quire well in his game against Andy Mac ...

Thanks.

I read this long ago and you are right, an excellent AAR. I have dredged it up again. As you know, every time you re-read an AAR you learn hundreds of new things.

A hint of what I am up to in the next few turns is on his page two.