1st Marine Div??

[MrDave]

My game time in the full campaign is Feb 4, 1942. I see regiments of the 2nd Marines but where is the 1st? The 1st Marine Rgt is due to arrive in May per the Reinforcement schedule. I thought the 1st had already been constituted by now.

[Bearcat2]

7th Marine Rgt is the first unit of the 1st Mar Div to appear, it should be on the board, unless you have the variable reinforcements option. The other 2 Rgts come in may 42

[Canoerebel]

Are you confusing the nomenclature a bit? "2nd Marines" means the 2nd Marine Regiment, not the 2nd Marine Division. Ditto "1st Marines" - that's 1st Regiment, not 1st Marine Division.

You should begin the game with two of the three 2nd Division regiments on the board: 2nd Marines and 8th Marines. The third regiment, 6th Marines, should arrive around May '42.

None of the 1st Marine Division regiments are present at start: 7th arrives around March '42 and the 1st Marines and 5th Marines around May '42.

From Wiki: "The 1st Marines stood at a low state of readiness at the beginning of the war, having just been reconstituted from cadre status; however, the regiment did possess very strong leadership at the higher levels. In June 1942, the 1st Marines set sail from San Francisco on board a mix of eight ships headed for the South Pacific. The 1st Marines landed on the island of Guadalcanal, part of the Solomon Islands, on 7 August 1942 and would fight in the Guadalcanal Campaign until relieved on 22 December 1942."

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Are you confusing the nomenclature a bit? "2nd Marines" means the 2nd Marine Regiment, not the 2nd Marine Division. Ditto "1st Marines" - that's 1st Regiment, not 1st Marine Division.

You should begin the game with two of the three 2nd Division regiments on the board: 2nd Marines and 8th Marines. The third regiment, 6th Marines, should arrive around May '42.

None of the 1st Marine Division regiments are present at start: 7th arrives around March '42 and the 1st Marines and 5th Marines around May '42.

From Wiki: "The 1st Marines stood at a low state of readiness at the beginning of the war, having just been reconstituted from cadre status; however, the regiment did possess very strong leadership at the higher levels. In June 1942, the 1st Marines set sail from San Francisco on board a mix of eight ships headed for the South Pacific. The 1st Marines landed on the island of Guadalcanal, part of the Solomon Islands, on 7 August 1942 and would fight in the Guadalcanal Campaign until relieved on 22 December 1942."

Wiki is short on details in that summary. The First Marine Division was sent first to Australia to train for six months and receive some of their equipment to fill out the TOE before they were to take part in any landings. But when the Japanese started building an airstrip on Guadalcanal, Operation Shoestring was conceived to take it back and their training was cut short. They went to Guadalcanal short of everything.

[spence]

Article of interest re: 1st Marine Division training in amphibious warfare.

https://www.uscg.mil/History/articles/C ... ll2011.pdf

Interesting that the 1st Marine Division starts off at Camp Lejeune but it ends up as the home station for the 2nd Marine Division.

Also interesting since it specifically names some ships which began amphibious warfare training with professional USCG crews in conjunction with the 1MarDiv well before the US entry into WW2

[Canoerebel]

I don't think 1st Marine Division went to Australia. I think part of the division (minus 5th Marines and minus artillery) went to Auckland. It did some training around Suva (before or after Auckland, I disremember). Then it took part in Watchtower.

5th Marines were in Samoa at the time, so in its place, another regiment was attached (one that belonged to 2nd Marine Div.).

[BBfanboy]

Further on the Division/Regiment idea:

Divisions are not permanent entities. They are created as required from available regiments and usually have some additional equipment like artillery and AA, and maybe a recon battalion and combat engineer battalion. Any of these elements can be swapped out if required.

Regiments are "permanent" in the sense that their colors and history remain even if the Regiment is inactivated and has no troops, or becomes a militia formation to do some training and keep the traditions alive. When activated they fill out their ranks and indoctrinate the troops in the Regiment's history and traditions to build pride of belonging. The troops identify with their Regiment, not the Division they happen to be assigned to.

You will notice some Regiments in the game that never get assigned to a Division. They are usually called "Separate" or "Independent" after the regimental name.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I don't think 1st Marine Division went to Australia. I think part of the division (minus 5th Marines and minus artillery) went to Auckland. It did some training around Suva (before or after Auckland, I disremember). Then it took part in Watchtower.

5th Marines were in Samoa at the time, so in its place, another regiment was attached (one that belonged to 2nd Marine Div.).

I take my info from the TV Series and book "The Pacific", which showed the Marines in Australia both before and after Guadalcanal - but that may have been only one regiment.

[Canoerebel]

None of the 1st Marine Division regiments was in Oz before Guadalcanal.

[MakeeLearn]

"Initially only the 7th Marine Regiment was in garrison on British Samoa, with the 5th Marine Regiment having just encamped at Wellington, New Zealand after disembarking from USAT Wakefield, and the 1st Marine Regiment not scheduled to arrive in New Zealand until 11 July. The 1st Raider Battalion was on New Caledonia, and the 3rd Defense Battalion was in Pearl Harbor. All of the division's units, with the 11th Marines (artillery) and 75mm howitzer armed 10th Marines battalion would rendezvous at Fiji."

"After 11 days of logistical challenges, the division, with 16,000 Marines, departed Wellington in eighty-nine ships embarked for the Solomon Islands with a 60-day combat load which did not include tents, spare clothing or bed rolls, office equipment, unit muster rolls or pay clerks. Other things not yet available to this first wave of Marine deployments were insect repellent and mosquito netting. Attached to the division was the 1st Parachute Battalion, which along with the rest of the division, conducted landing rehearsals from 28 to 30 July on Koro Island, which Major General Alexander Vandegrift described as a "disaster"."

"Following the Guadalcanal Campaign, the division's Marines were sent to Melbourne, Australia for rest and refit.[14] It was during this time that the division took the traditional Australian folk song "Waltzing Matilda" as its battle hymn. To this day, 1st Division Marines still ship out to this song being played."

[Canoerebel]

That's partly wrong too.

The "division" didn't depart Wellington for the Solomons. Most of it did, but not all of it. As noted, the 7th Marines were at Samoa (and I think the artillery - 11th Arty? - was somewhere else too). In its place, one of 2nd Marine Division's regiments was attached to the 1st Division. It might be proper to say that the 1st Marine Division "as then constituted" participated in Watchtower, but I think the marines involved would've made the distinction.

These are all relatively insignificant details, but it's interesting that Wiki is mostly right but not completely right. It's always a good place to begin reading on a subject but it's dangerous to rely on the information.

[Canoerebel]

I ran across a similar situation at work last week. A freelance writer submitted a Civil War story in which he quoted extensively from Company Aytch, by Sam Watkins. Later in the story, the freelance writer cited some statistics about the Army of Tennessee that struck me as incorrect. When I raised the point, the writer told me, "I got this from Sam Watkins," and then went on to explain how Watkins's book was widely quoted and was an unimpeachable source. How dare I question the statistics!

I knew better. Company Aytch is a magnificent book. Watkins wrote beautifully and movingly of his experiences in the Civil War. But he also made occasional mistakes. The statistics cited were incorrect.

[DRF99]

... the division, with 16,000 Marines, departed Wellington in eighty-nine ships ...

Interesting that it states that it took 89 ships to load a single division. Even assuming that this is the equivalent of an amphibious task force, this seems like a lot.

Does AE allow us to load troops using far fewer ships that were used in real life? The D-day invasion of Normandy has only 5 assault divisions and seemed to use every ship in the theatre but AE allows us to land a large number of divisions on an enemy base quite easily.

If the load costs for amphibious task forces in stock AE are too lenient, do any of the mods out there make it more difficult?

[MakeeLearn]

ORIGINAL: DRF99

... the division, with 16,000 Marines, departed Wellington in eighty-nine ships ...

Interesting that it states that it took 89 ships to load a single division. Even assuming that this is the equivalent of an amphibious task force, this seems like a lot.

Does AE allow us to load troops using far fewer ships that were used in real life? The D-day invasion of Normandy has only 5 assault divisions and seemed to use every ship in the theatre but AE allows us to land a large number of divisions on an enemy base quite easily.

If the load costs for amphibious task forces in stock AE are too lenient, do any of the mods out there make it more difficult?

I think that's the total number of ships not just the transports. One book I have puts the transports at 23, 8 cruisers, 15 destroyers, plus the 3 carriers, BB North Carolina, 6 cruisers and numerous destroyers

[MakeeLearn]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

That's partly wrong too.

The "division" didn't depart Wellington for the Solomons. Most of it did, but not all of it. As noted, the 7th Marines were at Samoa (and I think the artillery - 11th Arty? - was somewhere else too). In its place, one of 2nd Marine Division's regiments was attached to the 1st Division. It might be proper to say that the 1st Marine Division "as then constituted" participated in Watchtower, but I think the marines involved would've made the distinction.

These are all relatively insignificant details, but it's interesting that Wiki is mostly right but not completely right. It's always a good place to begin reading on a subject but it's dangerous to rely on the information.

It is written with generalities and "take literally" contradictions.

[MakeeLearn]

Sam Watkins??

Oh, the "Little Bug".

[GI Jive]

...it took 89 ships to load a single division...

I think this is saying there were 89 ships in the invasion task force. This would include carriers and other combat ships such as cruisers and destroyers that were not actually transporting troops, equipment, vehicles or supplies. I think that game load costs are reasonable.

[Buckrock]

There probably were around 89 ships involved in the Operation Watchtower invasion, from CVs down to DMS and AVDs. As far as transports though, there were only 13 APs, 6 AKs and 4 APDs as part of that total.

[JeffroK]

Original question, wasnt one of its regiments on Iceland at the outbreak of war in the Pacific and took a few months to be relieved?

WRONG, that was 6th Marines.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: MrDave

My game time in the full campaign is Feb 4, 1942. I see regiments of the 2nd Marines but where is the 1st? The 1st Marine Rgt is due to arrive in May per the Reinforcement schedule. I thought the 1st had already been constituted by now.

warspite1

Info below largely from Frank's marvellous Guadalcanal but other sources used to.

7th Marine Rgt is the first unit of the 1st Mar Div to appear, it should be on the board, unless you have the variable reinforcements option. The other 2 Rgts come in may 42

The arrivals in game can be shown to roughly match that below. The 1st Marine Division was constituted but by April 1942 “the 1st Marine Division represented a title, not a tactical unit” (Frank – Guadalcanal)

1st Marine Division – Major-General AA Vandegrift

7th Marine Regiment – other regiments were stripped to bring fully up to strength and the 7th Marines sailed for Samoa on 10th April 1942.

5th Marine Regiment – this regiment had been reduced in order to bring the 7th Marines up to strength and to assist the formation of the 1st Raider Battalion.

1st Marine Regiment – this was at cadre status until as recently as March, when it was filled out. One transport and two cargo ships carried the men and their equipment.

The 11th Marine Regiment - provided the divisional artillery
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The First Marine Division was sent first to Australia to train for six months and receive some of their equipment to fill out the TOE before they were to take part in any landings.

On the 29th April 1942 Admiral King ordered an amphibious force stationed in the South Pacific. The 1st Marine Division would be the core of that force.

The 5th Marines, the divisional HQ and sundry divisional assets sailed for Wellington, New Zealand (not Australia) on the 20th May and arrived there on the 14th June.

The 1st Marines and the remaining divisional assets sailed in 8 ships for New Zealand in June, arriving in early July.

For Watchtower the two regiments (1st and 5th) of the division would be supplemented by:

2nd Marine Regiment – which was detached from the 2nd Marine Division to replace the 7th Marines – and sailed from San Diego on four ships and rendezvoused with the rest of the landing force en-route to Guadalcanal.

1st Raider Battalion – was at Noumea, New Caledonia in training there and was picked up by four destroyer-transports en-route

3rd Defence Battalion - sailed for Fiji from Hawaii on the 22nd July where it met up with the main convoy.

1st Parachute Battalion - sailed initially for New Zealand in June and then to Fiji the following month. Must have been picked up en-route but no details as to which ships.

There is mention of the 10th Marine Battalion in Wiki but Frank and Mueller don't mention this unit for Watchtower.

The 1st Marine Division left New Zealand on the 22nd July 1942.

It arrived off Fiji on the 26th and a rehearsal was carried out.

The fleet then set sail for Guadalcanal on the 31st July.

"After 11 days of logistical challenges, the division, with 16,000 Marines, departed Wellington in eighty-nine ships embarked for the Solomon Islands with a 60-day combat load which did not include tents, spare clothing or bed rolls, office equipment, unit muster rolls or pay clerks. Other things not yet available to this first wave of Marine deployments were insect repellent and mosquito netting. Attached to the division was the 1st Parachute Battalion, which along with the rest of the division, conducted landing rehearsals from 28 to 30 July on Koro Island, which Major General Alexander Vandegrift described as a "disaster"."

Interesting that it states that it took 89 ships to load a single division.

[/quote]
The 1st Marine Division was thus heavily reinforced with effectively an extra regiment thanks to the three additional battalions; 1,959 officers and 18,146 men.

There was not enough room on the 23 transports - not 89. The bulk of the ships were the escorting warships.

From http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/USN ... ons-6.html

To utilize to the utmost the troop-carrying capacity of the ships available, all excess supplies and equipment were eliminated and even normal supplies were radically curtailed. Divided into 13 classifications, equipment and supplies were taken aboard in varying quantities as follows:

Group 1, individual equipment (all the weapons, mess gear, clothes, etc., which an officer or enlisted man could carry on his person).--All of this was taken.

Group 2, baggage.--Officers were limited to one clothing roll, one bedding roll or one handbag. Enlisted men were permitted to take aboard only what they could carry in their knapsacks.

Group 3, office equipment (typewriters, pencils, paper, etc.)--All these were taken. Included in this category were medical supplies, of which enough were taken for 60 days.

Group 5, supplementary equipment.--This was reduced to necessary cleaning materials for weapons only.
Group 6, mess equipment.--This was restricted to a very few field kitchens and water bags, vacuum food carriers, camp kettles, and coffee mills.

Group 7, camp equipment (tents, etc.).--Tents were provided only for the sick bay.

Group 8, transportation (motor vehicles).--Only 50 percent of the available vehicles were taken, except amphibious tractors, all of which were taken.

Group 9, special equipment (camouflage, chemical warfare, etc.).--This category was reduced materially.

Group 10, ammunition.-- Ten units of fire, one unit of fire being the ammunition necessary to operate a weapon in one day of fighting.

Group 11, automatic supplies (rations for men, gas and oil for vehicles, etc.).--Enough for 60 days.

Group 12, replacement supplies (spare parts for guns, vehicles, etc.).--All available were taken.

Group 13, post exchange articles.--Only necessary items like soap, matches, razor blades and cigarettes were taken. No candy.