1st Marine Div??

[Jorge_Stanbury]

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn
not yet available (...) were insect repellent and mosquito netting.

89 ships and they forgot insect repellent... the horror, the horror

[JeffroK]

Warspite,

the following answers you questions above

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/USN ... ns-13.html

For those Hyperwar followers, it seems to be revitalised.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Warspite,

the following answers you questions above

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/USN ... ns-13.html

For those Hyperwar followers, it seems to be revitalised.

warspite1

Thanks - I can see the 1st Raider Battalion - and have amended my post, but cannot see reference to where the other two battalions were prior to Watchtower.

[JeffroK]

3rd Defence Bn USMC, from wiki
The battalion was stationed at the Marine Barracks, Pearl Harbor during the 7 December 1941 attack on Pearl Harbor. Immediately following the events at Pearl Harbor, 3d Defense Battalion provided reinforcements for the outlying US garrisons at Midway, Johnston, and Palmyra Islands. During this time the battalion also added two additional batteries in May 1942, Battery K under the Machine Gun Group and Battery L (20mm AA Btry). On 22 May 1942 the battalion’s anti-aircraft group consisting of H&S, D, E, F, L & K batteries were sent back to Midway Island via the USS Kitty Hawk (AKV-1). They arrived at Midway on 26 March and would take part in the Battle of Midway on 4–5 June 1942. Following the fighting at Midway the detachment returned to Hawaii on 15 June 1942. At this time the 3’ AA Group was re-designated as the 90mm Group and the Machine Gun Group was re-designated as the Machine Gun Group. Searchlight battery was made part of the 90mm Group at this time. After the reorganization, the battalion spent most of July 1942 preparing for future offensive amphibious operations.
Guadalcanal Campaign
3rd Defense Battalion with a 90 mm antiaircraft gun at Guadalcanal

On 21 July 1942 the battalion embarked upon the USS Zeilin (APA-3) and USS Betelgeuse (AKA-11) heading for Guadalcanal. On 7 August 1942, the 3d Defense Battalion, landed along with the 1st Marine Division's on Guadalcanal.

[JeffroK]

The Paramarines [:'(]

1st Parachute Bn USMC, same place.

The first cohort of Marines paratroopers trained at NAS Lakehurst in New Jersey in October 1940, eventually becoming the 1st Marine Parachute Battalion. They were followed by a second group in December 1940, forming the 2nd Marine Parachute Battalion. A third class trained at Camp Kearny in San Diego, California in early 1941, eventually forming the 3rd Marine Parachute Battalion. After the United States entered World War II, the training program was stepped up, and a special training camp and parachute training school was opened temporarily at Camp Elliott in San Diego in May 1942, next to Camp Kearny, moving to purpose-built accommodation nearby at Camp Gillespie in September 1942. A second training camp and parachute training school opened at Hadnot Point on the New River in North Carolina in June 1942, but closed in July 1943.

The 1st Parachute Battalion was attached to the 1st Marine Division for the invasion of Guadalcanal. On 7 August 1942 the unit conducted an amphibious assault on the small island of Gavutu and later seized the neighboring island of Tanambogo with other Marine units. The battalion later moved to Guadalcanal fighting alongside the 1st Marine Raiders in the Tasimboko raid and the Battle of Edson's Ridge. The high casualties suffered by the Marine paratroopers led the battalion to be moved to Camp Kiser in Tontouta, New Caledonia in September.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

3rd Defence Bn USMC, from wiki
The battalion was stationed at the Marine Barracks, Pearl Harbor during the 7 December 1941 attack on Pearl Harbor. Immediately following the events at Pearl Harbor, 3d Defense Battalion provided reinforcements for the outlying US garrisons at Midway, Johnston, and Palmyra Islands. During this time the battalion also added two additional batteries in May 1942, Battery K under the Machine Gun Group and Battery L (20mm AA Btry). On 22 May 1942 the battalion’s anti-aircraft group consisting of H&S, D, E, F, L & K batteries were sent back to Midway Island via the USS Kitty Hawk (AKV-1). They arrived at Midway on 26 March and would take part in the Battle of Midway on 4–5 June 1942. Following the fighting at Midway the detachment returned to Hawaii on 15 June 1942. At this time the 3’ AA Group was re-designated as the 90mm Group and the Machine Gun Group was re-designated as the Machine Gun Group. Searchlight battery was made part of the 90mm Group at this time. After the reorganization, the battalion spent most of July 1942 preparing for future offensive amphibious operations.
Guadalcanal Campaign
3rd Defense Battalion with a 90 mm antiaircraft gun at Guadalcanal

On 21 July 1942 the battalion embarked upon the USS Zeilin (APA-3) and USS Betelgeuse (AKA-11) heading for Guadalcanal. On 7 August 1942, the 3d Defense Battalion, landed along with the 1st Marine Division's on Guadalcanal.

warspite1

Osprey states the 6th Marine Defence Battalion was on Midway but doesn't mention the 3rd. Nothing in Shattered Sword.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

The Paramarines [:'(]

1st Parachute Bn USMC, same place.

The first cohort of Marines paratroopers trained at NAS Lakehurst in New Jersey in October 1940, eventually becoming the 1st Marine Parachute Battalion. They were followed by a second group in December 1940, forming the 2nd Marine Parachute Battalion. A third class trained at Camp Kearny in San Diego, California in early 1941, eventually forming the 3rd Marine Parachute Battalion. After the United States entered World War II, the training program was stepped up, and a special training camp and parachute training school was opened temporarily at Camp Elliott in San Diego in May 1942, next to Camp Kearny, moving to purpose-built accommodation nearby at Camp Gillespie in September 1942. A second training camp and parachute training school opened at Hadnot Point on the New River in North Carolina in June 1942, but closed in July 1943.

The 1st Parachute Battalion was attached to the 1st Marine Division for the invasion of Guadalcanal. On 7 August 1942 the unit conducted an amphibious assault on the small island of Gavutu and later seized the neighboring island of Tanambogo with other Marine units. The battalion later moved to Guadalcanal fighting alongside the 1st Marine Raiders in the Tasimboko raid and the Battle of Edson's Ridge. The high casualties suffered by the Marine paratroopers led the battalion to be moved to Camp Kiser in Tontouta, New Caledonia in September.

warspite1

Yes but doesn't say how it got there. Could have been part of 5th Marines or 1st Marines when they sailed separately for New Zealand or, like the Raider battalion, could have been elsewhere.

[MakeeLearn]

"After a pre-dawn bombardment on 7 August 1942 Company A of the 1st Marine Parachute Battalion landed on Gavutu in Higgins boat against little opposition. B & C Companies were not as fortunate and had to land under heavy fire. Bitter fighting ensued for the next two days until they secured their objective, Hill 148. The units 20 percent casualty rate was the highest of any unit fighting to secure a foothold on Guadalcanal. Because of the battalions depleted manpower, the unit was attached to Edson's Raider Battalion by General Vandegrift at the end of August on Tulagi. On September 8th the 1st Marine Parachute Battalion and the 1st Raider Battalion landed on Guadalcanal under cover of darkness and conducted a raid against Japanese positions near the village of Tasimboko. After this highly successful raid the Marine parachute battalion remained on Guadalcanal occupying defensive positions atop Lunga Ridge. It later became known as Edson's Ridge because of the success of Edson's 1st Raider Battalion and the 1st Marine Parachute Battalion against repeated ferocious banzai attacks by the Japanese in their attempt to recapture Henderson Field."

http://www.ww2-airborne.us/units/1stmar ... arine.html


"The 1st Parachute Battalion entrained for Norfolk, VA on 7 June, where it embarked in the USS MIZAR on 10 June and sailed via the Panama Canal for Wellington, New Zealand, arriving and disembarking on 11 July 1942. On 18 July, it boarded the USS HEYWOOD and sailed for Koro, Fiji Islands, where it underwent rehearsals of the Guadalcanal operation.

http://www.jpagac.com/Paramarines2.pdf

[warspite1]

All I was wondering was how it, and the 3rd Defence Battalion got to Guadalcanal i.e. where had they been based earlier that year?

Edit: Just seen the edit. Right so the paratroopers were in Fiji and would have needed to be picked up en route. 1 down - 1 to go [:)]

[MakeeLearn]

They had been moving around prior to...

"In July 1942, Nimitz ordered the 3rd Defense Battalion from Hawaii to provide coast and antiaircraft protection for the Guadalcanal Landing Force. The battalion sailed on board the Betelquese and the Zeilin on 22 July to rendezvous with 1st Marine Division in the Fiji Islands for the assault on Guadalcanal. Thus, when the 3rd Defense Battalion's light antiaircraft batteries went ashore, it became the first defense battalion to participate in an offensive landing. The battalion landed antiaircraft artillery batteries on both Guadalcanal and Tulagi islands, ...."

A very informative PDF on the Defense Battalions:
https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67 ... aynard.pdf

[warspite1]

Right so according to Frank:

The 1st Marine Division left New Zealand on the 22nd July 1942

It arrived off Fiji on the 26th and a rehearsal was carried out.

The fleet then set sail for Guadalcanal on the 31st July.

[spence]

From what I've read the rehearsal off Fiji was a disaster but then the initial landing on Guadalcanal was carried out (against very lite resistance) just fine. Guess it took about two weeks to figure out how to do it right. The game seems to require an awful long time to train for a specific objective: is this actually realistic?

[JeffroK]

You can attack with 0% planning, an unopposed landing suffers losses from people seeing a landing craft for the first time,into swamp, being pounded by your own Navy and your Air Support attacking your own Navy, on the wrong island.

[spence]

Not that I really want to change the algorithms used by the game but exactly how much experience did the IJA gain in amphibious warfare in their "pre-war" war against China?

[JeffroK]

SFA

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: spence

From what I've read the rehearsal off Fiji was a disaster but then the initial landing on Guadalcanal was carried out (against very lite resistance) just fine. Guess it took about two weeks to figure out how to do it right. The game seems to require an awful long time to train for a specific objective: is this actually realistic?

warspite1

Yes, it did go ‘just fine’ but no, I don’t think 'it took just 2 weeks to figure out how to do it right':

a) The weather. The convoy – seemingly one being sent to Australia – changed course north south of Rennell Island to approach the target. As it did so the weather (heavy clouds and rain) gave protection from snooping Japanese reconnaissance aircraft flying from Rabaul and Gavatu. Then, as the invasion shipping rounded Cape Esperance in the early hours of 7th August the skies cleared. This allowed good visibility for shore bombardment and the destruction of the Japanese Yokohama Air Group – Mavis and Rufes.

b) On Guadalcanal Vandergrift was not impressed. Referring to the 1st Bn, 5th Marines. “As with the 1st Marines, though with less excuse, control soon broke down……..Regimental Commanders lost contact with their battalions; battalions groped for each other and their companies….Perhaps fortunately the leathernecks encountered no Japanese”.

c) “Trouble of a different character was also brewing back on the beach. Grounded landing craft littered the surf, while just beyond, and sometimes in the water as the tide rose, rested a jumble of boxes, crates and barrels…..this scene became a subject over which a great deal of ink was shed as to the respective responsibilities of the Navy and the Marines…inability of the overwhelmed Marine short party…..the situation became chaotic…the commander of the transports directed each ship to detach fifteen sailors……but this was not nearly enough…sight of idle marines cracking coconuts, swimming and lounging around enraged transport officers”.

d) “Despite the coast watcher’s advanced warning, a breakdown in the complex flying schedule….left only 12 instead of 24 Wildcats over the landing area…an erroneous air vector sent a division of four Wildcats….away from the air battle altogether. Fortunately the Japanese only succeeded in hitting one destroyer”.

e) “….The available supplies lay piled up on Beach Red, 3 miles from the new perimeter, and totally exposed to land, sea or air attack. Fortunately for the marines, no Japanese commander seized this opportunity”.

f) “Within the 1st Marine Division these first operations exposed deficiencies in planning, patrolling, coordination, communications, control and fire discipline…already some leaders had been tried and found wanting from platoon to regimental level”.

You can only beat the enemy in front of you and as Frank states, “Overall there was much to be proud of in the manner in which the green division had successfully executed its difficult mission.”

It does not take much in war for things to go pear-shaped. Marine difficulties were entirely understandable given their lack of experience. Fortunately the Japanese response in the first vital few days was not all it could have been and mistakes, whether understandable or avoidable, were not punished.

[US87891]

ORIGINAL: warspite1
All I was wondering was how it, and the 3rd Defence Battalion got to Guadalcanal i.e. where had they been based earlier that year?

Edit: Just seen the edit. Right so the paratroopers were in Fiji and would have needed to be picked up en route. 1 down - 1 to go [:)]

Elements of 1st Marine Division departed Norfolk, for New Zealand, in May 1942. Other elements, including HHQ and company A, 1st Marine Parachute Battalion, departed Norfolk in a second echelon, for New Zealand, June 10, 1944. Remaining elements, including companies B and C, 1st Marine Parachute Battalion, departed San Francisco, for New Zealand, June 19. All elements 1st Marine Parachute Battalion (361 total officers and enlisted, not including USN personnel) in New Zealand July 11. Battalion embarked USS Heywood, July 18, in Koro Island convoy.

The AA group of 3rd Marine Defense Battalion departed Midway Island for Pearl Harbor, June 16. HHQ, AA and MG groups and service battery, 3rd Marine Defense Battalion, departed Pearl Harbor July 12 for rendezvous at sea with 1st Marine Division. Seacoast artillery group remained Hawaii to re-equip. SA group departed Pearl Harbor for Guadalcanal, arriving August 23.

Matt
[ed] Elements of 3d departed Pearl Harbor July 22, not July 12. Arthritic fingers.
[ed] Norfolk second echelon departed June 10, 1942, not 1944. Arthritic fingers again.

[MakeeLearn]

I seem to recall reading that a unit gains experience when doing a amphibious landing. So will that unit gain experience when doing a amphibious landing at a friendly base or a empty enemy base? I will try to test this.

[bobdina]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Further on the Division/Regiment idea:

Divisions are not permanent entities. They are created as required from available regiments and usually have some additional equipment like artillery and AA, and maybe a recon battalion and combat engineer battalion. Any of these elements can be swapped out if required.

Regiments are "permanent" in the sense that their colors and history remain even if the Regiment is inactivated and has no troops, or becomes a militia formation to do some training and keep the traditions alive. When activated they fill out their ranks and indoctrinate the troops in the Regiment's history and traditions to build pride of belonging. The troops identify with their Regiment, not the Division they happen to be assigned to.

You will notice some Regiments in the game that never get assigned to a Division. They are usually called "Separate" or "Independent" after the regimental name.

In the U.S.,Army Divisions have been permanent since WW-1 . For the Marines since at least WW-2. These divisions are self contained with the support you mentioned however sometimes when deploying you will get attached units.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: bobdina

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Further on the Division/Regiment idea:

Divisions are not permanent entities. They are created as required from available regiments and usually have some additional equipment like artillery and AA, and maybe a recon battalion and combat engineer battalion. Any of these elements can be swapped out if required.

Regiments are "permanent" in the sense that their colors and history remain even if the Regiment is inactivated and has no troops, or becomes a militia formation to do some training and keep the traditions alive. When activated they fill out their ranks and indoctrinate the troops in the Regiment's history and traditions to build pride of belonging. The troops identify with their Regiment, not the Division they happen to be assigned to.

You will notice some Regiments in the game that never get assigned to a Division. They are usually called "Separate" or "Independent" after the regimental name.

In the U.S.,Army Divisions have been permanent since WW-1 . For the Marines since at least WW-2. These divisions are self contained with the support you mentioned however sometimes when deploying you will get attached units.

I didn't make myself clear. I didn't mean that the Divisions are not in constant existence, but that their composition can change continually. When a regiment gets beat up in battle and needs to be withdrawn, another can be attached to take its place. The Divisional structure is like a skeleton on which things are hung.
Similarly, a Regimental Combat Team (RCT) is like a mini-division - a regiment with attached support arms.