All things Football (soccer) related

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Zorch

This is where a salary cap might help. Limiting all teams to the same monetary amount might reduce the temptation to gain an advantage by cheating. Although human greed is limitless...

I do not think a salary cap will help at all. Except, maybe, make the players earn less and the club owners more.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Zorch

This is where a salary cap might help. Limiting all teams to the same monetary amount might reduce the temptation to gain an advantage by cheating. Although human greed is limitless...

In this particular case the trick was to avoid paying tax on what has now been deemed to have been wages. So the notional wage is not really the problem.

More generally the demographics of Scotland distorts the situation. The total population is about 5.3m, of those 1.3m live in/around Glasgow and another 1m live in a cluster of medium sized towns in the wider region. Edinburgh has a population of around 400,000 (and another 200,000 in nearby towns). So in effect the two big Glasgow teams can draw on roughly 50% of the population (and both also have a lot of supporters from Ireland who regularly come to matches). The result is regular crowds for Rangers and Celtic around 50-60,000 compared to say 20,000 at Hearts (the largest of the two Edinburgh teams) and maybe 15,000 at Aberdeen.

Makes it very hard to find a means to have a balanced league. For a long time we had those two pretty much winning everything but at least there was some sharing. We're now stuck in a situation where Celtic simply win everything as they can match Rangers for match day revenue and top that up with the earnings from European football etc. If this puts Rangers back into a financial crisis (and they have never really recovered from the 2012 fines), then we are stuck with a one team league no matter how you try to constrain expenditure.

[Zorch]

The salary cap is tied to league revenues, so it goes up when the league prospers. The % is collectively bargained between the owners and the players union. Think of it as revenue sharing. And all teams must spend at least 89% of the salary cap (in the NBA).

It does serve to level the playing field when small market teams are in a league with much larger market teams (think New York and Kansas City).

Some sports (MLB) give visiting teams a portion of gate revenue.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Zorch

The salary cap is tied to league revenues, so it goes up when the league prospers. The % is collectively bargained between the owners and the players union. Think of it as revenue sharing. And all teams must spend at least 89% of the salary cap (in the NBA).

It does serve to level the playing field when small market teams are in a league with much larger market teams (think New York and Kansas City).

Some sports (MLB) give visiting teams a portion of gate revenue.

the problem with league level caps is it only really works in closed systems. So I guess that none of your NBA teams compete in other competitions on a regular basis. But in Europe, for some football teams, they are part of both their national league set up and embedded into various European competitions (ok I know that Scottish clubs tend to exit early, but [:'(]). So while there are rules on % of club revenue to salaries etc its harder to frame group rules as teams are parts of more than one group.

I do agree with gate sharing. When that went from English football under pressure from Man Utd and Liverpool in the early 80s it immediately removed a major source of revenue distribution. Scotland followed the year after and that pretty much entrenched the Rangers-Celtic duopoly as gate shares from those games made a huge difference to other sides in the league.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: Zorch

The salary cap is tied to league revenues, so it goes up when the league prospers. The % is collectively bargained between the owners and the players union. Think of it as revenue sharing. And all teams must spend at least 89% of the salary cap (in the NBA).

It does serve to level the playing field when small market teams are in a league with much larger market teams (think New York and Kansas City).

Some sports (MLB) give visiting teams a portion of gate revenue.

the problem with league level caps is it only really works in closed systems. So I guess that none of your NBA teams compete in other competitions on a regular basis. But in Europe, for some football teams, they are part of both their national league set up and embedded into various European competitions (ok I know that Scottish clubs tend to exit early, but [:'(]). So while there are rules on % of club revenue to salaries etc its harder to frame group rules as teams are parts of more than one group.

I do agree with gate sharing. When that went from English football under pressure from Man Utd and Liverpool in the early 80s it immediately removed a major source of revenue distribution. Scotland followed the year after and that pretty much entrenched the Rangers-Celtic duopoly as gate shares from those games made a huge difference to other sides in the league.

warspite1

Exactly. You would need to set a salary cap that was fair i.e. it reflected each country's tax regime, standard of living (especially house prices) - and in certain countries (the UK being a prime example) you would need to factor in regional differences!! [X(]

As for the duopoly, sadly I don't think anything practicable (that stops holding the big two back in European competition - not that it helped for long) could be done to help. These facts are quite stark and illustrate the problem:

Rangers - 115 (total trophies won)
Celtic - 102
The next highest?
Aberdeen with 19....

The League - the litmus test:
Rangers - 54
Celtic - 48
The next highest?
Three clubs, including the two Edinburgh 'giants' on 4-each....

[VPaulus]

This is also the problem that we face in the Portuguese league, although it's not so bad as it's in Scotland, because we have traditionally 3 main teams competing for the title.
These 3 teams just "choke" all the other teams, by controlling "in all aspects" (legally and possible illegally) the league.
For example they buy players, then lend them to the other teams, and then these players can't play against them. This is just a small example of what's happening.
They are always trying new dodgy tricks to perpetuate their power over the others.
The gap seems to be bigger nowadays, because more than ever, money plays an important part, and there's no way that the smaller teams can compete. For example the TV rights are negotiated separately with each team, so the big ones get the biggest chunk.
Then in the end of the season, it's really pathetic to see the two big teams who lost the league to accuse the winner of cheating. The three should be ashamed.

One could say that it's also happening with the Spanish league as well, basically it's either Real Madrid or Barcelona. In the Italian is Juventus versus Milan teams. In France the big team is PSG, although it alternates with other teams from time to time. The German is basically Bayern, Bayern, Bayern, Bayern, B. Dortmund, Bayern, Bayern....

So what we have now... basically is the Premiere league. In spite you have 6 big teams ( I include the spurs [:)] ) nowadays, there's always a lot of competition going on. It's a delight to watch a football match in the Premiere league.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: warspite1


..

As for the duopoly, sadly I don't think anything practicable (that stops holding the big two back in European competition - not that it helped for long) could be done to help. These facts are quite stark and illustrate the problem:

Rangers - 115 (total trophies won)
Celtic - 102
The next highest?
Aberdeen with 19....

The League - the litmus test:
Rangers - 54
Celtic - 48
The next highest?
Three clubs, including the two Edinburgh 'giants' on 4-each....

In truth, given the skewed demographics of Scotland there is nothing you can do at a fundamental level. Quite simply 20% of the population live in/around Glasgow. Add on both Rangers and Celtic have always drawn a lot of support from Ireland.

add on, a lot of what VPaulus mentions in relation to Portuguese football also applies. Both have cynically levered their relative advantage into absolute advantages. In a way the relative decline of TV money for the SPL has made the ratios worse, as clubs fall back on traditional match day takings then differences in average gates really affects overall budgets.

Good to see that St Johnstone have joined in the overall 'lets get knocked out early' competition. Now its down to Aberdeen and Celtic to see if they can be out before the end of July?

[warspite1]

Yes, well done St Johnstone. Hopes were not high to say the least, and in that regard you did not let the side down [:(].


Back to the bigger picture, where does European football go from here? I can't help but think that (assuming no economic bombshell comes out of left-field) the mega rich clubs simply get richer (Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, PSG, Manchester United + a few hangers on (despite the state of Italian football you can't dismiss AC Milan or Juventus)) and the clamour for a European league will become deafening.

The rumours about a closed shop for these elite clubs refuses to go away sadly....

So what we have now... basically is the Premiere league. In spite you have 6 big teams ( I include the spurs [:)]) nowadays, there's always a lot of competition going on. It's a delight to watch a football match in the Premiere league.

VP you are not paying attention [;)]. You are right - there will be the big 6 in England - Arsenal, Chelsea, Everton, Liverpool, Manchester City and Manchester United. Re Spurs, this season all the good work of the last two seasons evaporates as Spursy implode under the enormity of expectation and playing at Wembley. Recriminations on-field lead to Poch's sacking in February and wholesale transfers out of the sinking ship in January and at the end of the season. Meanwhile, off-field the stadium runs into problems - they used the wrong sand/water/aggregate mix and the structure is declared unsafe and so not available for opening until 2020 when we will be hosting Championship matches.

Remember where you heard it first......

[VPaulus]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

The rumours about a closed shop for these elite clubs refuses to go away sadly....

We all know, that's a matter of years. I'm afraid there's no way to escape that.
I believe that's one of the reasons why the three big teams in Portugal have escalated their war between themselves.
Probably there will be a slot available for one Portuguese team for that league.

ORIGINAL: warspite1
VP you are not paying attention [;)].

Sorry, but I refuse to admit that Tottenham is not one of the top Premiere teams. [:)]
I'm not infected by the pessimistic virus that seem to affect all Spurs fans. [;)]
So if you want to add Everton, OK. Then we have seven big teams. [:D]

[SamSlitherine]

Footie Football

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: VPaulus

ORIGINAL: warspite1

The rumours about a closed shop for these elite clubs refuses to go away sadly....

We all know, that's a matter of years. I'm afraid there's no way to escape that.
I believe that's one of the reasons why the three big teams in Portugal have escalated their war between themselves.
Probably there will be a slot available for one Portuguese team for that league.

ORIGINAL: warspite1
VP you are not paying attention [;)].

Sorry, but I refuse to admit that Tottenham is not one of the top Premiere teams. [:)]
I'm not infected by the pessimistic virus that seem to affect all Spurs fans. [;)]
So if you want to add Everton, OK. Then we have seven big teams. [:D]

warspite1

Pessimistic? I'm one of the positive ones [:D]

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: VPaulus

ORIGINAL: warspite1

The rumours about a closed shop for these elite clubs refuses to go away sadly....

We all know, that's a matter of years. I'm afraid there's no way to escape that.
I believe that's one of the reasons why the three big teams in Portugal have escalated their war between themselves.
Probably there will be a slot available for one Portuguese team for that league.

I think this closed 'league' is going to be bad for the long term popularity of the sport.

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: VPaulus

ORIGINAL: warspite1

The rumours about a closed shop for these elite clubs refuses to go away sadly....

We all know, that's a matter of years. I'm afraid there's no way to escape that.
I believe that's one of the reasons why the three big teams in Portugal have escalated their war between themselves.
Probably there will be a slot available for one Portuguese team for that league.

ORIGINAL: warspite1
VP you are not paying attention [;)].

Sorry, but I refuse to admit that Tottenham is not one of the top Premiere teams. [:)]
I'm not infected by the pessimistic virus that seem to affect all Spurs fans. [;)]
So if you want to add Everton, OK. Then we have seven big teams. [:D]

warspite1

Pessimistic? I'm one of the positive ones [:D]

An Optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. A Pessimist knows it is. [:D]

[Orm]

Why bother to have rules at all? [&:] Is it because then the powers that be can demand payment to allow the rules to be broken? [:(]

The owner of these two clubs has nothing to do at all with the clubs. [8|] So therefore they can compete in the same competition even though it is against the rules.

The similarity in their kits is just coincidence. Right. [:D]



https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/s ... 103600370/

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Orm

Why bother to have rules at all? [&:] Is it because then the powers that be can demand payment to allow the rules to be broken? [:(]

The owner of these two clubs has nothing to do at all with the clubs. [8|] So therefore they can compete in the same competition even though it is against the rules.

The similarity in their kits is just coincidence. Right. [:D]



https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/s ... 103600370/

warspite1

Money talks and.......[8|]

[VPaulus]

European Under-19 Championship

England x Portugal = 2 - 1

Congratz! [:)]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: VPaulus

European Under-19 Championship

England x Portugal = 2 - 1

Congratz! [:)]

warspite1

Thank-you VP - its been an unusual summer for English football.....[X(] (well except for the part where we lost to Germany on penalties [;)])

[loki100]

Realise I have been terribly remiss in charting the traditional July exit of Scottish clubs from European football.

Well you will be pleased to know that Aberdeen are contributing in the traditional style having drawn 1-1 at home to Siroki Brijeg they are well placed to be knocked out on Thursday. Unfortunately Celtic seem determined not to add to the general glee in Glasgow (after Rangers' disaster) and lead Linfield 2-0 with the home leg today. Looks like they may actually last into August?

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: loki100

Realise I have been terribly remiss in charting the traditional July exit of Scottish clubs from European football.

Well you will be pleased to know that Aberdeen are contributing in the traditional style having drawn 1-1 at home to Siroki Brijeg they are well placed to be knocked out on Thursday. Unfortunately Celtic seem determined not to add to the general glee in Glasgow (after Rangers' disaster) and lead Linfield 2-0 with the home leg today. Looks like they may actually last into August?

warspite1

Yes I've been following this debacle sadly.... C'mon Linfield, make my day - and of course Aberdeen too.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: loki100

Realise I have been terribly remiss in charting the traditional July exit of Scottish clubs from European football.

Well you will be pleased to know that Aberdeen are contributing in the traditional style having drawn 1-1 at home to Siroki Brijeg they are well placed to be knocked out on Thursday. Unfortunately Celtic seem determined not to add to the general glee in Glasgow (after Rangers' disaster) and lead Linfield 2-0 with the home leg today. Looks like they may actually last into August?

warspite1

Yes I've been following this debacle sadly.... C'mon Linfield, make my day - and of course Aberdeen too.

I fear its now down to Aberdeen to maintain standards ...