Four Seasons with Models

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Ormand
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by Ormand »

ORIGINAL: LJBurstyn

I noticed that SMG II need to be built from scratch instead of upgrading the SMG I. I know that SMG is a model but should it not be up-gradable also.

I see what you mean, in that they are exactly like tanks, etc., in that they are extinct dinosaurs and you can't upgrade them. It is more realistic for tanks and fighters, since most of the effort for the new unit goes into the equipment. I have to think about this, and I would have to get Vic to add some Execs to do this.

I noticed that as map size increases Research costs go up...is this necessary? Correct? Part of ATG? Can it be reset by rules?

Yes, this is an ATG thing. It can probably be changed, but I am not sure how.
One suggestion: Not sure who this should go to. Allow models to be deleted. It is distracting to have old models still shown when I cannot build them. Or when I accidentally create two models of the same thing (UGH wrong model button got pressed).

A feature to ask Vic for
AI is hard...that's why I prefer HUMAN only games. Generally after 10 turns the AI is out of supply because it overbuilt and will lose. It simply cannot continue it's offensive no matter how aggressive it is set.


Lots of complaints on this. When I get something stabilized, I will look at how to get the AI more supplies. Bombur has indicated that he thinks allowing factories to build supplies will work. Another might be an AI only supply factory that produces only supplies. Let it be one of the factories the AI can build. It might be possible to use ExecAIAutoChangeProd (but this would probably require some implementation from Vic). You can use this to change production of AIGroup, which you can see by the AI Role Score. Here it is possible to switch from one group to another for each production center. I don't think supplies are a group though (although using -1 will get the AI to produce PP, perhaps it can be set to use 0 for supplies). The other way is to "cheat" and give the AI supplies based on what it needs.
Lastly for today: I know why you moved artillery to division level but now if you bombard with the artillery the division cannot take part in the attack afterwards. A lot of nations had artillery CORPS (and Divisions) for heavy bombardments...perhaps make a heavy artillery unit for this.

That is a thought. You can actually separate them out, and use them as artillery, even as is. It is a substantially different mindset this way, and perhaps not the best way to go about it, as one cannot pund the enemy beforehand to reduce readiness. Although, I tend to think that artillery is actually more effective in defense than offense. And, most artillery in WWII had ranges < 20 km, which is one hex here.

On a different note, I fixed two other "minor" bugs:
1. Forest low mountains had build roads set to .false. At this point it should only be high mountains snow where building of a road is not possible.
2. Reduced the storm probability in summer slightly.
One man alone can be pretty dumb sometimes, but for real bona fide stupidity, there ain't nothin' can beat teamwork -- Edward Abbey
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ernieschwitz
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by ernieschwitz »


quote:

I noticed that as map size increases Research costs go up...is this necessary? Correct? Part of ATG? Can it be reset by rules?



Yes, this is an ATG thing. It can probably be changed, but I am not sure how.

I believe it is done in the Setng menu. Somewhere on the right hand side up to. That is where I remember it being...
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LJBurstyn
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by LJBurstyn »

Two more things or is it three?

Missing two png's when I open the game. Newspapers.DR-SOV is one the other is (oh h I forgot but it also starts with Newspapers DR).

SP Artillery (model) still has a range of 2...it probably should be 1 also.

I cannot find the research thing in setting menu maybe I should look again...
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Ormand
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by Ormand »

Must have forgot to move those pngs over. I'll look.

I'll fix the sp arty range.

The research thing is in the editor, the Setng tab, and is ResProdRelMod. I am not sure if this can be set in the master, but can be set after the random game is created. It will take a little research to understand this.
One man alone can be pretty dumb sometimes, but for real bona fide stupidity, there ain't nothin' can beat teamwork -- Edward Abbey
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Ormand
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by Ormand »

OK, fixed those two.

The pictures are not actually part of FourSeasons but a scenario I was working on and the two got mixed up.

Yes, SP Artillery should have a range of 1. Missed that since it is in an event.

And, yes I know I should be changing the version number but it is a pain since I am editing six files at this point (with two versions of the code), and is a bit of work, so it is still v1.1.4
One man alone can be pretty dumb sometimes, but for real bona fide stupidity, there ain't nothin' can beat teamwork -- Edward Abbey
LJBurstyn
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by LJBurstyn »

I noticed in my game that I lose a lot more artillery while bombarding...is this intentional? I'll have a look and see if it is only counter-battery fire or other units also...should they be immune to attacks by other units while bombarding?
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Ormand
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by Ormand »

The counter battery feature is turned on, so that can have an effect, but, yes the should be invulnerable to other units, and they do not have an artillery range.

Then again, if you find something odd let me know.

And, thanks again for the feedback!
One man alone can be pretty dumb sometimes, but for real bona fide stupidity, there ain't nothin' can beat teamwork -- Edward Abbey
LJBurstyn
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by LJBurstyn »

I looked at the results of a bombardment. Rifle units were getting results against the artillery unit (in the result several attacked but missed). One HW unit forced an artillery unit to retreat. One unit was killed by an enemy infantry gun? I lost 5 artillery units out of 10 and did not get one enemy unit killed or forced to retreat.

The AI seems intent on building HW, guerilla,and militia units.
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ernieschwitz
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by ernieschwitz »

Counter Battery fire is extremely deadly, as you probably have found out by now. More deadly than regular bombardment. I turned it off in scenarios that are bigger scale. I argued that it was something more fit for smaller scale scenarios. I wish there was a way to tone it down.
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by LJBurstyn »

Since my losses have been heavier than the enemy when I bombard I have stopped all bombardments. Except I am using my SP artillery units to bombard out of range of enemy artillery (since it's range is 2 which I assume will be corrected in the future if not already).

Just discovered: Heavy Tank Destroyer Theory requires you have completed Heavy Tank Destroyer Theory???? Basically means you cannot have Heavy Tank Tank Destroyers.

Comment after researching dive bombers you still have to spend lots of PP to upgrade the dive bombers models? Should ground attack improvements be applied to dive bombers also?

EDIT: Hope someone can do something about upgrading ground units instead of having to build the new units and disband the old units.

EDIT2: Just noticed that there are TWO Fighter Ground Support IV's...one probably should just be named V since it requires IV to research.
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Ormand
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by Ormand »

First, the main thing I want to say is a great big THANKS for the feedback and putting up with some bugs. It was a large endeavor and quite a few things slipped through all the editing. Thanks to you, I think the number of them is dwindling away.

I have uploaded a new version v1.1.5 (but not for ATG v225 yet. Unless you need this, but I think this will also work with v225).

The complete list of things fixed since the first v1.1.4:
1. Changed Heavy Tank Destroyer Theory to require Heavy Tank I
2. Properly named Fighter Ground Support V
3. Heavy Weapons V blocks Heavy Weapons IV.
4. Set artillery range for medium coastal battery to 1
5. Set artillery range for sp-artillery to 1
6. Forest low mountains build road set to .true. High mountains snow is still .false.
7. Reduced the storm probability in summer seasons slightly.
8. removed extraneous pictures

As for ground support alteration. This is intended to be applied to fighters and not dive bombers. Dive bombers are assumed to be specially purposed for a ground-attack role. The extra PP to build a model is as with all model cases. The Fighter Ground Support is an alteration for fighters increases ground-attach strength at the expense of fighter air-to-air capability.

I will also have to research the counter-battery fire and exactly what is going on. According to the manual: "Another special rule is that defending artillery target of an artillery attack or shorebombardment
can do counter battery fire if rulevar 142 is active". Thus, I would expect it to be just like an artillery bombardment. Meaning that units without an artillery range shouldn't be able to participate. So, I'll need to take a look at the results, and report as needed.

Upgrading models is being looked into. There might be a resolution in a few weeks.

EDIT: A peak into the AI also revealed that it was enamored with HW. I have to look at this too.
One man alone can be pretty dumb sometimes, but for real bona fide stupidity, there ain't nothin' can beat teamwork -- Edward Abbey
LJBurstyn
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by LJBurstyn »

Pine forest are set to false for building roads....I know that it should be true since I've seen roads built in pine forests (help build one--dirt but it worked).

Will download new version and test it out....when I got the time....ugh bed is calling...
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Ormand
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by Ormand »

Actually, Pine Woods, but yep, not intended.

I uploaded v1.1.6

Changes:
1. Set build road to .true. for Pine Woods terrain
2. Modified Heavy Weapons SFT to make it more like (3*MG + Mortar)/4 since it is meant to replace a combination of the two.

I am curious how the HW renorm goes.

Also, I am toying with increasing road build costs for mud and winter terrains. Right now, it is the same to build a road in plains as well as muddy plains, which seems not quite right to me. Thoughts on this?
One man alone can be pretty dumb sometimes, but for real bona fide stupidity, there ain't nothin' can beat teamwork -- Edward Abbey
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cpdeyoung
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by cpdeyoung »

I know which terrain I would rather build a road in!
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Vic
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by Vic »

ORIGINAL: Ormand

Must have forgot to move those pngs over. I'll look.

I'll fix the sp arty range.

The research thing is in the editor, the Setng tab, and is ResProdRelMod. I am not sure if this can be set in the master, but can be set after the random game is created. It will take a little research to understand this.

Logic is that cost of research should gameplay wise be related to the number of turns. If you have bigger map you have more PP and it will cause research to progress much quicker. Hence the ResProdRelMod is used.

If it is set to 40.000 and total location production points equals 40.000 research will be default cost
If it is set to say 80.000 and total loc prod points is 40.000 research cost will be halved.
And if it is say 80.000 but total loc prod points is 320.000 then research cost will be multiplied by 4.

If you set ResMod to 0 nothing will be adjusted.

best wishes,
Vic
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LJBurstyn
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by LJBurstyn »

opps...I set ResProdRelMod to 999999999 guess that almost made research free...will reset to 0. Since research is research and larger nations always get greater progress at research because they are larger I don't think research should cost more just because the nation is larger. Since I once worked in research & development I know that some research can only be done by larger nations because smaller nations cannot afford the costs.

Well had another problem...a few days ago I smelled a burning smell but I could not find the source....last night my computer shut down because the UPS system started beeping that the battery was low (actually out of power)...found the power code that powered the UPS was not functioning because it had burned out...luckily it did not start a fire. I get the internet problem resolved at least temporarily (trees were blocking the line of sight to Mingus Mtn so the ISP moved my connection to another mountain (Squaw Peak) that is south of me and much further away (so weather conditions can interfere with the connection). They say the LTE system they are currently installing will resolve that problem for me...estimated it to be online in August which so happens to be the month I'll be gone on the Eclipse tour.

EDIT: Correction "power code" should be "power cord"--hope that didn't confuse too many of you.

Schedule update: I'll be leaving PHX on August 14th at 6 AM--which means I have to leave here before 4 AM since it's an 1.5 hour drive to PHX. Will return to PHX on August 23 at 6:40 PM--which means I will not make it home until 8 PM. The eclipse is on the 21st at 10:16 AM local time somewhere near Jackson Hole, WY.
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Ormand
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by Ormand »

ORIGINAL: LJBurstyn

AI is hard...that's why I prefer HUMAN only games. Generally after 10 turns the AI is out of supply because it overbuilt and will lose. It simply cannot continue it's offensive no matter how aggressive it is set.

I'm not sure about this being an issue, especially this early in a game. I have been playing a random game on a medium map for 19 turns now. Yes, I am beating the stuffing out the AI, but it isn't due to a supply problem. I made the game loadable, have checked in periodically to see how things are going. And, if anything, the AI has produced too many supplies. After 19 turns the AI SHQ has > 24000 in stock and it appears that each city has been devoting 10% of its production to supplies. It is also true that the AI has only one factory still, which might be a problem with my attempt to slow their deployment down. This hasn't really affected troop balance much as I haven't been able to build many factories either due to resource limits.

Mostly, the AI's problem against me has been attrition and possibly not having enough troops up front (for some reason it has three divisions garrisoning a city near the SHQ). The AI pushed hard, almost breaking some lines, but things settled down, and over time, the AI was participating in attacks at modest odds that inflicted some causalities and helped reduce the AI units' readiness. This loss of readiness has had more to do with the AI's current problems. But, the loss of readiness is not a supply issue.

The AI attacks are much better in the newer version. In the older version it would basically commit suicide by attacking strong positions at poor odds, which inflicted heavy losses and readiness losses, from which the AI would never recover.

The AI supply issue might be something that takes hold much later with many more factories in play, but I can't say.
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Vic
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by Vic »

Anyway if anybody has a save game where it is verifiable that the AI has large scale supply problems where it should not have them please DO send it to vic@vrdesigns.net and i'll use it to see if anything can be done to improve the ATG ai. I don't have super much time for ATG support but I do have the motivation. So send me those save games to help improve ATG please, for me it can shave of hours of work to have examples of bad AI behaviour.

Best wishes,
Vic
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LJBurstyn
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by LJBurstyn »

Makes me wonder if the readiness loss I've seen in the AI is not related to supply...Since it is happening in units that have not been in conflict I, maybe wrongly, assumed it was related to supply. Have to check the game to see if it is supply...


EDIT: How do you open the AI side to see what "he" is doing?
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Ormand
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RE: Four Seasons with Models

Post by Ormand »

In the editor go to "Seting" and the bottom Proprty Sheet "Import & Other Settings", and set Loadable=TRUE as shown. This will allow you to use the button right below "Load a saved game" to load a game that you have saved. You will have to open the editor for another purpose, like a clicking the EDIT button on the front.

When it comes to editing two player games, it looks like the editor will generally show the "supply" radio button for regime 1 only. If the AI is regime 1, and the game was saved for regime 2, this will gnerally not be accurate. It will show the red out of supply radio button for most, if not all regime 1 troops. I believe that this it is trying to calculate the supply situation for that turn, but supplies went into the unit the previous turn. Thus, it isn't accurate for regime 1. So, don't worry that the red button shows. I know this because I loaded it for a two human player game, and I saw the same effect even during the human player's turn all the supply indicators are good. Goto SHQ, and you will see the supplies in store.



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