This is crazy but..

[IBender]

So I know this will sound crazy, but I am setting up my next global and when it comes to Italy, I see frogmen. See screen shot. Was there some sort of update? Whats the story with this as I have never seen them before and I know I have set up global italy at least 6 or 7 times.

Thanks

[Joseignacio]

There are frogmen in the Italian pool but they come later in the war, maybe '41? So, are you sure you didn't start a scenario other than the global and that starts later?

If not, I guess it's a bug, I have never seen frogmen in the set up of any complete campaign.

[Centuur]

The units themselves are coded, as are some more additional units. However, the last I know is that the optional rule itself ísn't coded correctly and therefore the Frogmen optional rule cannot be selected.

So it looks to be a bug.

[Joseignacio]

Anyway, even if the Frogmen were selected, at least from the board game I can't remember any scenario starting in '39 that has Frogmen in the setup, it's too early.

[Centuur]

If you open the scenario booklet in MWIF, you'll see that Italy has got a Frogmen unit at start of the Global war.

[paulderynck]

Yes Italy always has started Global War with a frogman, if that optional is used. It's why CW CVs should not be based in Gibraltar before war with Italy, or even in Port Said or Alexandria if the frogmen are in Tripoli.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Yes Italy always has started Global War with a frogman, if that optional is used. It's why CW CVs should not be based in Gibraltar before war with Italy, or even in Port Said or Alexandria if the frogmen are in Tripoli.

warspite1

Wow,I didn't realise it was that bad. Sounds like a pretty historically unbalanced optional, but I guess is a useful tool for assisting the Italians.

[brian brian]

The Frogmen did achieve some results in history, though in history they weren't used on a Surprise Impulse. I think the game gets them right, though I might consider disallowing their ability to select an AMPH as a target - there weren't _that_ many Frogmen.

[warspite1]

Not saying they didn't but it was limited to one successful attack on the Queen Elizabeth and Valiant in 1941 - other attacks were failures. British midget submarines were equally as successful but don't get a counter - so its a balancing tool. The issue is that if they are so dangerous that the RN cannot place CV in the Mediterranean in 1939 then that is pretty extreme.

[brian brian]

The Frogmen can easily fail - one can say that many of the historical attacks with no significant results on a capital ship would be an example of the Italian player rolling too high, and using up a 2 BP Frogmen counter for no result.

The Frogmen are dangerous, and mostly on the Surprise Impulse. The Italians hold the strategic initiative of declaring War on impulse #3. The Royal Navy can sail in force to the Western Med before this happens on Impulse #2, but that comes with the risk of being caught by the Italian surface fleet on surprise. If they don't wish to expose their Carriers to a surprise Frogman attack on Impulse #3 nor commit to the West Med on impulse #2, they don't use Gibraltar as a base and they then end up with their CVs sailing from the UK to the 2 box instead of the 4 box. This doesn't seem like an extreme penalty for avoiding a possible surprise attack by the Frogmen.

Also such an attack comes at a cost for the Italians - choosing a Naval impulse to start the war and forgoing one of their greatest strategic assets, an amphibious landing by division(s) on the Surprise Impulse. Or, to take a Combined on the DOW impulse and use their one naval mission for a Frogman attack, leaving them with perhaps just one division afloat for a landing, having moved their maximum of one SCS on Impulse #1. It is a game of trade-offs and that trade-off for all parties is nowhere near enough to say the Frogmen counters are too powerful to use. But they are an optional rule if a player feels that way.

I believe the British receive a 'Mini-Sub' counter (the X-Craft, I would think) in one of the last expansions though I can't remember which one.

[brian brian]

and I would note that the At-Start Frogman counter completely fails 60% of the time, even on the surprise impulse. The sum total of results the other 40% of the time depends on the surprise points from the die rolls.

[brian brian]

So,,,,,, are the Frogmen coded now and the optional rule is not greyed out on the list?

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

and I would note that the At-Start Frogman counter completely fails 60% of the time, even on the surprise impulse. The sum total of results the other 40% of the time depends on the surprise points from the die rolls.

warspite1

Right, post 6 gave the impression that attacks were pretty certain to succeed i.e. not basing CV in the Med. Sounds like its just vanilla WIF - you can do x but y may result. Fair enough.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I believe the British receive a 'Mini-Sub' counter (the X-Craft, I would think) in one of the last expansions though I can't remember which one.

warspite1

Huzzah! [8D]

[brian brian]

Paul is a really good player and was just sharing a tip about something that is not very intuitive until you see the Frogmen take out a poorly deployed Ark Royal to start the game on a couple of moderately lucky rolls. The Brits either go all-in up to the 4 box of the West Med on Impulse #2, or they hang back with their CVs outside of the Med until war starts up there - smart play. If neither side pulls the trigger on turn 1, they can keep some CVs in Morocco and only give up one box, rather than two, after sailing from the UK itself. Unless they are attempting a port strike on the Italian TRS, there is little point to sailing CVs in the Med at all while Italy is neutral anyway.

Hopefully showing up in the set-up tray means they are ready to roll some dice in MWiF; they are a fun piece of the game.

[paulderynck]

It is a 40% chance of failure as the Italian starting frogman is a 3-factor unit, which is doubled for the search roll. But the defender chooses the first casualty so that's where the surprise impulse comes into play, allowing Italy to spend 3 to pick the first two targets. If you have the RAW7 Asia Aflame counter set, then there is a later 4-factor Italian frogman and the CW and Japan each get a 2 factor one.

But even if it were a 40% chance, that is unacceptable where a CV is involved, especially the Ark Royal.

Speaking of percentage chances, there seems to be a common feeling that any chance less than 50% won't happen. In fact they often do happen they just get progressively luckier or unluckier depending on your point of view. I've seen really awful things happen on a 1% chance...

A good example is what would people estimate the odds of getting better than a '2' result with lowest one of 4 dice on an AA roll? It is actually 41%.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

and I would note that the At-Start Frogman counter completely fails 60% of the time, even on the surprise impulse. The sum total of results the other 40% of the time depends on the surprise points from the die rolls.

They do. And I think I remember some power had even 2 of those minisub/frogmen. But as some people mentioned, their own survival probability is low/very low "per se", plus they can be intercepted at sea...

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

If you open the scenario booklet in MWIF, you'll see that Italy has got a Frogmen unit at start of the Global war.

Sh*t! I was so sure. I usually cannot check the MWIF booklet since most times I post from my workplace when I am free for some minutes, but I just downloaded the WIF scenarios and there it was! [:@][:(]

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

So,,,,,, are the Frogmen coded now and the optional rule is not greyed out on the list?

They are not coded. They should not appear in the Setup Tray - that's a bug.

[jboldt007]

Cool bug though!