Any Chinese campaigns?

MwR · Post by **MwR** » Thu May 10, 2001 9:50 pm

As a Chinses, I find it rather disapointing to see so few campaigns on the Chinese front.
In reality, not only there are battle with the Japanese, but between the Nationalist and the Communist forces as well. After the war, there were the famous "3 great battles" which the later trimphed. I wonder if anyone made any of them?

[ May 10, 2001: Message edited by: MwR ]

Grumble · Post by **Grumble** » Thu May 10, 2001 10:01 pm

Hi,
FWIW, I've haven't seen much on Chinese campaigns, whether Nationalist or Communist. Sounds very interesting though.
If you were to develop such a campaign, or even a few scenarios, I'm sure you'd be a hero on this forum....

kutalik · Post by **kutalik** » Fri May 11, 2001 12:05 am

Yeah I always thought that the Long March would be some interesting campaign or scenario material. Some pretty dramatic fighting in some of it.

The problem is that infantry-heavy time periods aren't the most popular around the SPWAW group.

DoubleDeuce · Post by **DoubleDeuce** » Fri May 11, 2001 12:25 am

Originally posted by kutalik:
The problem is that infantry-heavy time periods aren't the most popular around the SPWAW group.

But it would make for some intense knock down drag out fighting! I think the main reason it is not being done is that those who would most likely do it, don't want to risk putting in the time consuming effort for something they feel (whether right or wrong) the rest of us might not really enjoy.

Personally (and I'll probably be flamed for this but) I rarely even look at most of the scenario's that come with these type games. I use them for force, map, and setup ideas but that is about it.

All my PBEM games are built from scratch (guess it is a control thing).

MwR - I say make a couple small ones with a good story, nice map, and balanced forces and get them out to some of the members of this board to playtest them for you and give feedback.

You may find you are suddenly "THE MAN" when it comes to that theater of the war.

MwR · Post by **MwR** » Fri May 11, 2001 12:38 am

Hey, that's not a bad idea. But I just started on this type of game (SPWaW was my first try on wargames, unless if you count the "Ghilen's Greed:Blood of Zeon"[similar, but not that much] on the Playstation as this type of game).

I'll see if there's any docmentation on those area available. Even now, Chinese Government still sees Long March and the "The 3 Great Battles" as something of a monumental achievment, there should be some documentations for it. But the problem is the terrain: if you want to construct something realistic, you need good terrain mapping. This is available in the West, not in China though.

If I'm right, there was one decisive battle in the Long March which the Communist forces took a chain bridge which was in the hands of the Nationalists. I can't remember the details, hope someone could help to freshen my memory here.

[ May 10, 2001: Message edited by: MwR ]

kutalik · Post by **kutalik** » Fri May 11, 2001 1:42 am

Its funny that mention the chain bridge battle its one I was thinking was ripe for a scenario.

I forget the precise details (Chinese communist history is way out of my academic field) but I believe the PLA approached a steep river gorge where there was supposed to be a simple hanging bridge only to find that KMT forces had removed all the planks and were waiting on the other side.

Well of course instead of going around the PLA sends assualt squads to scale across the chain bridge suspenders. Some how they got to the other side and made short order of the KMT forces.

Could be interesting to design. Make a mountainous river gorge maybe a rail bridge as the "chains" and run it as an assualt scenario.

Might be fun to make PLA scenarios or campaigns just to get the goat of some of the Sinophobes in the Art of Wargaming forum. Bet Papa Mao wouldn't have returned that plane...

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Fri May 11, 2001 3:46 am

There is one in the game, MwR, called Chiang's Nightmare. It is scenario #91 in the scenario list.

If you have 5.01 version, start game, go to solitaire play, then type alt+j and type in scenario #91.

Here is the text on the battle:

CHIANG'S NIGHTMARE

Japanese Advance vs Chinese Delay
Lotien, China, August 23, 1937
Turns: 30

Author: Wild Bill Wilder

Play Notes: This scenario is much more enjoyable if the human player takes the Japanese side and toggles on the Chinese as the computer player. It also plays well in a two player game.*

Historical Background

Generalissimo Chiang Kai-Shek proclaimed control of Nationalist China seemed to be unraveling very quickly. Japanese forces had boldly moved forward and now controlled most of the major city of Shanghai.

Ready to finish the job, troops of the Imperial Japanese Army made amphibious landings behind the Chinese defenses to the northwest of the city.

Defending the area were Chinese forces poorly equipped and with very little training. Though they outnumbered the Japanese and were in relatively strong defensive positions, the fervor of the Japanese soldiers along with the growing experience in war were more than a match for their opponents.

IJA soldiers of the Tokushima Regiment clashed with Chinese troops of the Chinese 54th Corps near the village of Lotien.

Aftermath

Chiang's troops put up an unusually valorous defense, but were not able to stop the pincer movement of the Japanese to seal off Shanghai and assure its fall to the Japanese Empire.

There will be more..WB

Redleg · Post by **Redleg** » Fri May 11, 2001 5:30 am

Some early year PBEM between the two Chinas
with Troop Quality set to about 70 or 75 for both sides makes for some very good and interesing gaming..... I liked the cavalry units!

88mm · Post by **88mm** » Fri May 11, 2001 7:41 am

Yes, I second that request. China tied up large numbers of Japanese troops in the Pacific war, so they should deserve more credit in SPWAW. Some scenarios featuring the Chinese civil war between the Nationalists and Communists is good as well.

Igor · Post by **Igor** » Fri May 11, 2001 10:35 am

The Long March isn't the best field for scenarios. If you like rear guard actions, there's plenty worth doing; but the rest of the battles are either walkovers (grossly inept KMT/Warlord troops) or unwinnable (it took a miracle historically, hard to model).
Take the chain bridge; either the KMT troops are completely inept, or any Communist troops trying to cross will be slaughtered. How do you make that playable? For that matter, how do you model the inability to shoot while crossing a chain?

As an aside, China was a very odd theater. Mao won an early battle against Warlord troops with drums. The Japanese were once thwarted by troops armed with crossbows. A Japanese advance was stopped by dynamiting the Yellow River dykes; two million people drowned or starved, but the tanks stopped...on the other hand, KMT troops would get out of the way to let the Japanese go by because Chaing wasn't worried by anyone but the Communists. Lots of stories here.

[ May 11, 2001: Message edited by: Igor ]

Resisti · Post by **Resisti** » Fri May 11, 2001 11:12 am

Hmmm... maybe Mr.George W.Bush could help you all to set a brand new one