We only have to kick down the door..........

[TeaLeaf]

Indeed! This is what the Russian OC is for. With 2D10 this is even more true (in the open).
Russia can concentrate all its armor in the south and be very dangerous especially late in the turn when German air is either spent or out of range.
Forests/cities/swamps in the north can be defended with INF/CAV/AT.

I think this is why my friend says Germany should concentrate their attack either in the North OR the South, not both.

[brian brian]

Scenario is different of course, you don't need to preserve non-ARM forces for later

But curious why Zhukov didn't take the Breakthroughs, threaten the Rundstedt HQ, and thereby just about compel a German withdrawal from the souhern 2/3 of the 'factory line' ?

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Scenario is different of course, you don't need to preserve non-ARM forces for later

But curious why Zhukov didn't take the Breakthroughs, threaten the Rundstedt HQ, and thereby just about compel a German withdrawal from the souhern 2/3 of the 'factory line' ?

That depends what units are under von Rundstedt and the bomber. If those are good German units it is a good decision to stay in place and not give the Germans the opportunity for a possible bloody counterattack.

[brian brian]

Ahh, couldn't see the stack totals well on the medium zoom. Manstein did win some of his best battles on the counter-attack. (He is still a corps commander right now).

I might have gone for it though. A double move here....

[Orm]

I didn't advance because I am a too cautious commander.

I feared a German double move. And that was about as likely as a Soviet double move. Germany could have rebased their superior bomber force (At least 3 Stukas were organized further North) to the area. USSR is low on fighter protection. Only two fighters remain and only a 4 strength covering the attacking force.

So I the only thing I saw was getting the army ground struck in the middle of nowhere and then surrounded. I didn't see what nice things a Soviet double move could do. [:D]

[Courtenay]

ORIGINAL: Orm

I didn't advance because I am a too cautious commander.

I feared a German double move. And that was about as likely as a Soviet double move. Germany could have rebased their superior bomber force (At least 3 Stukas were organized further North) to the area. USSR is low on fighter protection. Only two fighters remain and only a 4 strength covering the attacking force.

So I the only thing I saw was getting the army ground struck in the middle of nowhere and then surrounded. I didn't see what nice things a Soviet double move could do. [:D]

If the Russians get a double move, will they retake Kiev, turning it into a hero city?

(Normally I don't make strategy posts that could affect a game in progress, but this is such an obvious possible move that I don't think I am asking brian brian anything he hasn't already asked himself. (Although the mere asking such a question usually means that the Germans will go first! [:)]))

[warspite1]

I cannot see anything in the rules about liberation of the Baltic States but I would have thought Latvia and Estonia should have been liberated by now?

[warspite1]

Jul/Aug - Sep/Oct 1941
Impulse: End of Turn and Reinforcement

Production:
Germany (27):
5 x INF
1 x MIL
2 x PIL
3 x FTR

USSR (16):
2 x INF
1 x INF DIV
4 x MIL

Reinforcement:
German
1 x MIL (Konigsberg)
1 x INF (Berlin)
1 x ARM (Kongisberg)
1 x MECH (Breslau)
2 x INF DIV (Konigsberg, Breslau)

USSR
4 x MIL (Stalingrad), (Tashkent), (Rostov), (Sverdlovsk)
CAV DIV (Dnepropetrovsk)
1 x INF (Kalinin)
2 x GARR (Kursk), (Kalinin)
1 x MOT (Voronezh)
FORT - Rostov - Hexside 0 (West)

[warspite1]

Sep/Oct 1941
Impulse: Start of Turn

Initiative:
Axis: 5(6)
Allies: 2

No re-roll available, track stays on Axis +1

Weather:
2

[warspite1]

Sep/Oct 1941
Impulse: 1 (Axis)

Germans choose a Land Action. After that result there is absolutely no point in mucking about; its **** or bust time.

Port Attack: None
Naval Air: None
Strategic Bombing: None
Ground Strike: The Luftwaffe throw everything into the mix; their two remaining bombers in the south anyway. He-111's target the stack west of Belgorod, while Dorniers attack the city itself. In line with standing orders, With fighters available for escort, the Soviets do not fly. I do not have orders for the AA unit north of Belgorod. I am in two minds here as to what the Soviets should do. If the German attacks succeed then the AA is left disorganised. But if the German attacks fail, they have effectively lost the game. So I think, on balance, the Soviets would intervene and so the AA is committed.

[warspite1]

Sep/Oct 1941
Impulse: 1 (Axis)

Aware of the impending attack, the AA unit is deployed to meet the He-111's and force some of the pilots to shed their load early.

[warspite1]

Sep/Oct 1941
Impulse: 1 (Axis)

The results are better than expected

[warspite1]

Sep/Oct 1941
Impulse: 1 (Axis)

Rail Movement: The Germans, desperate to replace the losses suffered during Zhukov's counter-attack, rail forward to Kiev the newly raised 6th (SS) Panzergruppe.
Land Movement: The Germans, stretched to breaking point give the campaign one last shot. Army Groups Centre and South link up to try a desperate pincer attack aimed at threatening Zhukov. Two attacks will be attempted, bring in to play all remaining panzer reserves of Panzergruppen 2 and 1.

[warspite1]

Sep/Oct 1941
Impulse: 1 (Axis)

Land Combat: The Soviets are asked about HQ Support with Zhukov. They decline the invitation.

Ground support is more tricky here. Soviet standing orders state:
USSR bombers will fly defensive air support if the combat is deemed important and no opposing fighter can intervene. Unless deemed of critical importance.

I think I am on safe ground saying the Soviets would not intervene in the south as the Germans have a 7-quality fighter that can intercept.

More likely is that the Soviets would intervene in the north, and make the fractional odds throw more worrying for the Germans. The Luftwaffe cannot take the chance of intervention (which I think the Soviets would order) and so waste both a bomber and fighter to ensure that possibility is discounted.

[warspite1]

Sep/Oct 1941
Impulse: 1 (Axis)

So to combat and the odds are 2:1 (likely 3:1 with fractionals) and 3:1 +2 - both will be Blitz attacks.

In the south an 8 is thrown, costing the Soviets a cavalry division and shattering the rest (I do not convert).

In the north another 8 is thrown. No losses occur to either side but again the Soviets are shattered. Once again there is no conversion.

[warspite1]

Sep/Oct 1941
Impulse: 1 (Axis)

Rebase: With only two rebases available, the Luftwaffe re-arrange their air force deployments in the north.
HQ Re-organisation: None

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I cannot see anything in the rules about liberation of the Baltic States but I would have thought Latvia and Estonia should have been liberated by now?

If you've entered the capital of these states, you should have been asked the question to liberate these countries after the conquest phase. If that didn't occur, you've stumbled upon a bug.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I cannot see anything in the rules about liberation of the Baltic States but I would have thought Latvia and Estonia should have been liberated by now?

If you've entered the capital of these states, you should have been asked the question to liberate these countries after the conquest phase. If that didn't occur, you've stumbled upon a bug.

They should have. But there was a bug with their conquered status from the setup (their capitals didn't provide supply for Soviet forces). This has been fixed since then but only applies to new games. So therefore they didn't become liberated.

Although, I have yet to check the bug fix.

[Orm]

USSR reinforces the South somewhat and retreats slightly. A HQ and 2 ATR reorganize 4 Soviet defenders.

With 60% chance of bad weather I do not think it is to much to ask for some rain once in a while. [:(]

[warspite1]

Sep/Oct 1941
Impulse: 3 (Axis)

The Germans choose a land action.

Port Attack: None
Naval Air: None
Strategic Bombing: None
Ground Strike: Stukas are called in in preparation for trying to eject Soviet forces in marshland between Novgorod and Kalinin.