The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

[obvert]

[font="Times New Roman"]Oct 4, 1944[/font]

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[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]SW PAC: [/font] Woleai is invaded!! No big surprise there, but it is surprising that he uses two big BB TFs hit the base first and then two more in the amphib TF plaster the troops. I thought for sure it was a goner.

But no ... the 16th regiment holds on in their bunkers, pillboxes and emplacements. They waited through the terror of the big gun shells landing, then launched a counter attack on the beachheads. The 12th NZ Brigade was overwhelmed, pushed back into the surf, unable to to find cover.

This is an atoll. Only 4 forts but still, can't mess with an atoll bringing only a small brigade unsupported by engineers, tanks or arty. The forts hold, the 16th is only 18/16 fatigue/disruption, and the base has 48 AV left for tomorrow. We'll keep sending in troops and go from there. I doubt there's much left for combat troops on the other side. If he's smart he'll pull these all off now.

Sqz is not happy, feels he got a bad roll.

[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]SUBS: [/font] Subs will come in and try for stragglers.

[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]BURMA: [/font] Seems he's serious about the jungle escapade. I'll need to start planning the timing for bringing troops back onto the Chang Mai-Bangkok rail line.

[font="Trebuchet MS"]
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AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Oct 4, 44
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Night Naval bombardment of Woleai at 101,103

Japanese Ships
PB Higashiyama Maru, Shell hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
xAKL Keizan Maru, Shell hits 1

Allied Ships
BB Tennessee
BB California

Japanese ground losses:
117 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 9 destroyed, 24 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 4 disabled

Airbase hits 6
Airbase supply hits 6
Runway hits 21
Port hits 9
Port supply hits 5

OS2U-3 Kingfisher acting as spotter for BB Tennessee
BB Tennessee firing at Woleai

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Night Naval bombardment of Woleai at 101,103

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-84b Frank: 1 destroyed on ground

Japanese Ships
xAKL Keizan Maru, Shell hits 1

Allied Ships
BB New Mexico
BB Idaho
DD Satterlee
DD Meade
DD Welles
DD Laffey
DD Aaron Ward
DD Wilkes

Japanese ground losses:
345 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 6 disabled
Non Combat: 5 destroyed, 19 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 3 (1 destroyed, 2 disabled)

Airbase hits 7
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 6
Port hits 4
Port supply hits 1

BB New Mexico firing at Woleai
OS2U-3 Kingfisher acting as spotter for BB Idaho

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Pre-Invasion action off Woleai (101,103)
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force

41 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
BB Mississippi
BB Pennsylvania
CL Trenton
CL Richmond
DD Flusser
DD Shaw
DD Drayton
LCI-70
LCI-66
LCI-65
APA Leonard Wood
DD Tucker

Japanese ground losses:
265 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 40 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 39 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled

BB Mississippi firing at 76th JAAF AF Bn

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Amphibious Assault at Woleai (101,103)

TF 287 troops unloading over beach at Woleai, 101,103

Allied ground losses:
3 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 6 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 26 (0 destroyed, 26 disabled)
Vehicles lost 8 (0 destroyed, 8 disabled)

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Ground combat at Woleai (101,103)

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 3557 troops, 90 guns, 8 vehicles, Assault Value = 129

Defending force 3834 troops, 44 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 103

Allied adjusted assault: 0

Japanese adjusted defense: 16

Allied assault odds: 1 to 99 (fort level 4)

Combat modifiers
Defender: forts(+), disruption(-), preparation(-), experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
849 casualties reported
Squads: 32 destroyed, 34 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 4 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 18 (3 destroyed, 15 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
1064 casualties reported
Squads: 93 destroyed, 19 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 15 disabled
Engineers: 5 destroyed, 13 disabled
Guns lost 17 (5 destroyed, 12 disabled)
Vehicles lost 3 (2 destroyed, 1 disabled)

Assaulting units:
12th NZ Brigade
57th Australian Lt AA Regiment
8th Marine Defense Battalion
E/F Battery Heavy Coastal Artillery Regiment

Defending units:
78th Naval Guard Unit
16th Ind.Mixed Rgt /1
76th JAAF AF Bn
72nd Air Flotilla /1
1st Naval Const Bn /2

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[/font]

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[font="Trebuchet MS"]This is exactly the kind of move I would have hoped for from the Allies right now. A small level 0/2 field atoll not close enough to much to make it really useful. And ... they didn't get it. [/font][8D]

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[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: obvert


Well, there is one thing ...

The Ki-83 is good, and it is an improvement, but at least for me, I don't find it to be a wunderkind.
I find the J7W to be a bit better, but still not a wunderkind solution.

Both aircraft are competitive which is huge, but not dominate. This is in contrast to when the N1K/J2M first arrive, they really are dominate. Its about the last time the IJ get to experience that wonderful feeling.
[&o][&o][&o]

[:D][:D][:D]

[Bif1961]

Nice picture of the KI-45D with the slanted twin 20mm cannons.

[Lokasenna]

The Ki-83 can dominate on the sweep. At least as often as Jugs do in the reverse.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

The Ki-83 can dominate on the sweep. At least as often as Jugs do in the reverse.

But with SR3, they cannot sweep nearly as often. I didn't say it wasn't good, it is. But it is not a dominant aircraft. It is on par with the allied, no more.

Ask yourself this: would you take P47N or Ki-83 if you have a choice? Most players will choose the P47N, although they will give the Ki-83 acknowledgement as a good plane.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

The Ki-83 can dominate on the sweep. At least as often as Jugs do in the reverse.

But with SR3, they cannot sweep nearly as often. I didn't say it wasn't good, it is. But it is not a dominant aircraft. It is on par with the allied, no more.

Ask yourself this: would you take P47N or Ki-83 if you have a choice? Most players will choose the P47N, although they will give the Ki-83 acknowledgement as a good plane.

In equal production numbers? Without Tracker in front of me, I'm pretty sure the Ki-83 has better stats for everything but durability and the SR.

In which case... I'd rather have the Ki-83 because as mentioned, SR doesn't dictate frequency of sweeps so much as enemy defenses do. At least in my experience.

[PaxMondo]

I think you want to check stats ... Ki83 is competitive, but no more than that ...
[;)]

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I think you want to check stats ... Ki83 is competitive, but no more than that ...
[;)]

Altitude is key. Can it dive on P-47s? If so and there's a reasonable expectation with its armament that it will down P-47s, then I want it.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I think you want to check stats ... Ki83 is competitive, but no more than that ...
[;)]

The Ki-83 is IMHO the best fighter Japan gets in the war, and the sooner you get it the better. When compared to several Allied fighters of the same generation though, it's just a pickem. Depends on what you want to do and how you want to set things to do it.

P-47N though is a cut above, obviously.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: obvert

The Ki-83 is IMHO the best fighter Japan gets in the war, and the sooner you get it the better. When compared to several Allied fighters of the same generation though, it's just a pickem. Depends on what you want to do and how you want to set things to do it.

P-47N though is a cut above, obviously.

I know you are a big fan.


[&o][&o][&o][&o][&o][&o][&o][&o]

[Bif1961]

Given those stats and my HRs which limits planes to their 2nd best altitude ban + 1K the Ki-83 would be limited to sweeping or CAP at no higher than 21K while the P47N would be 32K+. Also the P-47N was the fastest of the bunch at 460 MPH and had a roll rate on par with the best of them, though it turned like a truck. It was also the best fighter bomber of those listed and could take the must punishment. So on all counts the P-47N was the superior and most versatile aircraft.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I think you want to check stats ... Ki83 is competitive, but no more than that ...
[;)]

The Ki-83 is IMHO the best fighter Japan gets in the war, and the sooner you get it the better. When compared to several Allied fighters of the same generation though, it's just a pickem. Depends on what you want to do and how you want to set things to do it.

P-47N though is a cut above, obviously.

These stats are not stock stats.

P-47N in stock is limited to 42K (pretty sure). Ki-83 is not limited to 36600 in stock.

I've been talking about stock stats this whole time, so if yours are different, then just cross out everything I said [;)].

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


These stats are not stock stats.

P-47N in stock is limited to 42K (pretty sure). Ki-83 is not limited to 36600 in stock.

I've been talking about stock stats this whole time, so if yours are different, then just cross out everything I said [;)].

Just grabbed them from the first game I was in. I'll look in stock too.

It's interesting all of the changes Symon made to airframes for DBB that ALL seem to enhance Japanese airframes. Some of them might have needed a push, like the Ki-100, but I can't imagine why he'd lower the P-47N altitude? (Stock is 42k I think). [&:]

Even with the stock stats though, the P-47N is top dog by a fair margin. Altitude can be beaten, but most Allied players don't use the best airframes on CAP duty often anyway. Their resting for the next sweep.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


These stats are not stock stats.

P-47N in stock is limited to 42K (pretty sure). Ki-83 is not limited to 36600 in stock.

I've been talking about stock stats this whole time, so if yours are different, then just cross out everything I said [;)].

Just grabbed them from the first game I was in. I'll look in stock too.

It's interesting all of the changes Symon made to airframes for DBB that ALL seem to enhance Japanese airframes. Some of them might have needed a push, like the Ki-100, but I can't imagine why he'd lower the P-47N altitude? (Stock is 42k I think). [&:]

Even with the stock stats though, the P-47N is top dog by a fair margin. Altitude can be beaten, but most Allied players don't use the best airframes on CAP duty often anyway. Their resting for the next sweep.

In stock, the Ki-83 can out-altitude any Allied aircraft (except perhaps the P-38J with its 44,000) if I'm remembering correctly. Combined with its 438mph top speed and dive bonus... and really, its not-awful maneuver and extremely accurate CL cannons... It can be murderous.

I might not be remembering the stock altitude correctly, as Wikipedia says the service ceiling was 41,500.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


These stats are not stock stats.

P-47N in stock is limited to 42K (pretty sure). Ki-83 is not limited to 36600 in stock.

I've been talking about stock stats this whole time, so if yours are different, then just cross out everything I said [;)].

Just grabbed them from the first game I was in. I'll look in stock too.

It's interesting all of the changes Symon made to airframes for DBB that ALL seem to enhance Japanese airframes. Some of them might have needed a push, like the Ki-100, but I can't imagine why he'd lower the P-47N altitude? (Stock is 42k I think). [&:]

Even with the stock stats though, the P-47N is top dog by a fair margin. Altitude can be beaten, but most Allied players don't use the best airframes on CAP duty often anyway. Their resting for the next sweep.

In stock, the Ki-83 can out-altitude any Allied aircraft (except perhaps the P-38J with its 44,000) if I'm remembering correctly. Combined with its 438mph top speed and dive bonus... and really, its not-awful maneuver and extremely accurate CL cannons... It can be murderous.

I might not be remembering the stock altitude correctly, as Wikipedia says the service ceiling was 41,500.

Here are the two form stock. And ... wiki is right!

It does have a high ceiling, though, and truthfully it's tough to fly CAP at 42k every day. Not many players would have their P-47N groups on CAP at 42k just waiting for max sweeps.

I think the Randy Ia does 44k. So that can top the P-47N.

[Bif1961]

Since very few planes were ever operated at their max altitude, most planes flew like sputtering trucks that far up, my HR limits operations at the 2nd best altitude ban +1K. That would leave the Ki-83 at 33K and since the P-47N has no 2nd best ban it can operate all the way up to 42K.

[obvert]

It look like this game may be on hold again. After some discussion Joe has decided continuing might be too much right now. He's dealing with a lot of RL stuff and this is a pretty demanding time as Allies.

So ... I'm still interested in continuing.

If there is anyone who wants to pickup to any time in the last 6 months (I have all of the turn files so can go back easily) and play an endgame, let me know.

[Canoerebel]

Eric, you might check with Joe. He wrote in his AAR that you terminated the game. I'm not sure he meant that...or perhaps he misunderstood something. He's pretty addled, I think, by developments in the game.

[Lowpe]

Oh, man, I would love to pick up the game, but I can't keep up with what I have right now.

Can you send me the files if indeed it is a drop. I would love to look at it from the Allied POV.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Eric, you might check with Joe. He wrote in his AAR that you terminated the game. I'm not sure he meant that...or perhaps he misunderstood something. He's pretty addled, I think, by developments in the game.

We've been back and forth a few times by email already. It's been a good discussion with no animosity, just some revelations about his personal life and where he's at in relation to the game. I was originally frustrated and asked to call it off if he felt so wronged each time something good happened for the Japanese. We've had some discussions in the past about this and the slow pace of the game, which has been in virtual stasis for about a year game time.

I reacted but came back to ask that he continue if he felt he wanted to, asI'm still interested and I really value his efforts and his camaraderie. We've actually had a good few years of exchanges, but when the game turns he also turns, and it seems like it's been weighing on him.

He made the decision in the end to pull away form the game, at least for a while, and I understand with the RL things he's dealing with. He's a competitor, and it's tough if he isn't competing at the level he wants and expects to due to other things happening.

We'll probably have a phone conversation soon to just chat. I hope this doesn't mean he backs out of the forum community, as he's been such a part of it for so long. He said his heart is still in it but his mind is telling him it's not the right thing to continue just now.