Revisionist History-OT

[MakeeLearn]

“A little learning is a dangerous thing. Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian Spring;
There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, and drinking largely sobers us again."

Alexander Pope

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

Nelson supported slavery? [&:][&:][&:]

Am I missing something?

warspite1

Not really. The soppy tart has not the wit nor the intelligence to understand what she's waffling on about or where her skewed 'logic' takes us.

I have no idea on Lord Nelson's views on non-white people, but I take it as read that the majority of 'educated', 'god-fearing' and 'civilised' people in the 17th and 18th centuries were racist - if indeed the poor 'black' man troubled their minds at all. They were the times they lived in. It's sad - incredibly sad but we develop and learn. Those alive then, did not have the benefit of our learning, understanding and development - its that that should make us appreciate the likes of William Wilberforce all the more.

I admire Horatio Nelson for his military prowess - for such ability is one of the reasons - probably the reason - my country was not conquered by Napoleon. His statue does not stand in Trafalgar Square because of any racial, religious or sexual views he had; he commands pride of place because as a sailor, a warrior a defender of the UK he was the dogs dangly bits.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

And what about me? I am an employer who tells my employee when to come to work, when to go to lunch, when to go home, what are her off days, how much she gets paid, what the dress code is, what she can listen to on the radio, and how many weeks of paid vacation she gets each year.

warspite1

Fascist scum bag. Down with Canoerebel and up the workers!

[AW1Steve]

As a British friend of mine once said "we live in an age of nutters". (That was in 1983...I think it's not only still true , it's ALWAYS true)
Here's the thing. In the 1950's we , as a culture, grew to respect and admire News commentators and academics. The Most trusted man in America" was a journalist and news commentator who destroyed his own image , and those who followed him by admitting (AFTER he retired) that he wasn't honest at all and actually TRIED to shape the news. That would lead to journalist being rated in public opinion polls well after politicians' and lawyers! And not all that ahead of child molesters! This cannot have but helped in their own diminishment and ability to sway opinion.

In the 1960's academia was targeted by revolutionary and other youth groups was destruction , disrespect and diminishment. It succeeded beyond any ones wildest dreams. Now some of those SAME former students are the academic leaders and are demanding respect and obedience. GOOD LUCK WITH THAT! [:D]

My point is that in both cases these two formerly powerful groups have largely reduced themselves to a punch line. In their place have arisen even more powerful , yet proletariat entities. Due to the computer/internet combination , ANYONE can be a news commentator. Even former reporters who broke with their former masters (in his case the Washington Post) to get their own view out. News is no longer in lockstep with the "big three" networks in the USA. And like any monopoly who loses exclusive control , the big three are dying.

Academia likewise no longer has the death grip on education they once had. Colleges no longer turn away 20 applicants for everyone they accept , but scrabble for every single one. Only the biggest schools can now say whatever they please without being cut off by their biggest funding group , their own alumni. Colleges like U Colorado and Duke university have been bit by the folly of insulting the beliefs and values of those alumni. Many colleges and graduate schools have significantly scaled back their class sizes.

In the case of both these formerly powerful entities , they like the Pekingese dog (that once was the same size as lions) haven't yet recognized how much their influences have shrunk. While neither is yet irrelevant , both are tremendously diminished. How many here can name the three major news anchors of the "big three networks"? You could from the 1950's to the 19980's. That's just one example.


So instead of struggling to regain what they lost , each of these institutions have "dove for the basement" in the "How low can you go sweepstakes". News is largely what which bimbo is wearing where, and colleges keep coming up with weirder and more numerous ways to "protect the feelings" of their inmates (sorry, I meant students). [:D]

My point in this long winded spiel is simply this: don't worry quite so much. 1) the "silent majority" (as Nixon termed them is starting to rebel). College enrollment , funding and endowments are way down , technical schools and other vocational education is up. On line classes are in many ways replacing traditional. And news? People are going to blogs , direct sources , "renegade news channels and papers" (from Fox , to on line news papers like the Washington examiner to , well the possibilities are endless.

In short , while messier , information is out there. People as a whole are searching for the whole story , or at least the "not reported" part. While that will lead to some nutcases and "conspiracy lovers", we've always had that. But anyone who really wants information can find it. Via internet , self published books, records on line , real video........

As a relatively recent TV show used to declare "the truth is out there". Or my own feelings , "People are much less willing to be mushrooms". [:D]

[Canoerebel]

...well, as long as I'm not considered the dogs dangly-bits!

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

...well, as long as I'm not considered the dogs dangly-bits!

warspite1

[:)]

[Canoerebel]

AW1Steve, I like what you say but my eyes tell me it isn't so. We see what's happening in America. Those capable of reasoning and good will are a diminishing minority subject to the tyranny of the majority, as all minorities are. The new majority is livid and intolerant and filled with hate against those who see things differently. It's too ironic that the new majority, who values tolerance, love and acceptance above all is filled with intolerance and hate against any who dare to disagree. I think the battle is lost.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

AW1Steve, I like what you say but my eyes tell me it isn't so. We see what's happening in America. Those capable of reasoning and good will are a diminishing minority subject to the tyranny of the majority, as all minorities are. The new majority is livid and intolerant and filled with hate against those who see things differently. It's too ironic that the new majority, who values tolerance, love and acceptance above all is filled with intolerance and hate against any who dare to disagree. I think the battle is lost.

warspite1

+1

This is the start of a tide. The silent majority are gradually moving into the minority with each passing generation.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

And the latest historical figure in the firing line is Horatio Nelson....

Stop the world I want to get off..
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... olumn.html

Thank you for sharing.

[Grfin Zeppelin]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

And the latest historical figure in the firing line is Horatio Nelson....

Stop the world I want to get off..
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... olumn.html

Thats a joke right ? Please say it is.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

ORIGINAL: warspite1

And the latest historical figure in the firing line is Horatio Nelson....

Stop the world I want to get off..
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... olumn.html

Thats a joke right ? Please say it is.

warspite1

Yes it is - and the joke is on us [:(]

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

AW1Steve, I like what you say but my eyes tell me it isn't so. We see what's happening in America. Those capable of reasoning and good will are a diminishing minority subject to the tyranny of the majority, as all minorities are. The new majority is livid and intolerant and filled with hate against those who see things differently. It's too ironic that the new majority, who values tolerance, love and acceptance above all is filled with intolerance and hate against any who dare to disagree. I think the battle is lost.

warspite1

+1

This is the start of a tide. The silent majority are gradually moving into the minority with each passing generation.

I have been out of academia for 10 years. With life continuing to straiten out, I plan to return next year to my beloved field of History. This situation and utter STUPIDITY of it leads me to slightly fear returning and being that 2% of Higher Ed who put conservative behind my name.

We are all about freedom of speech as long as it is MY speech and not yours. WE are all equal but some are more equal then others. To question or challenge is to be branded a racist by the Left. This is the direction I avoided going down in my earlier Post.

These are thought-provoking questions but there is no 'real' way to actually discuss and debate them without it becoming heated with name-calling. Witness the many threads that have been shut down over the years for just this same issue. Someone always throws a bomb into a well-meaning and thoughtful discussion.

Socrates and his 'gadfly' comments about Athens would have gotten him shot in this current environment. No slow poison for today. NOPE!

[Grfin Zeppelin]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

ORIGINAL: warspite1

And the latest historical figure in the firing line is Horatio Nelson....

Stop the world I want to get off..
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... olumn.html

Thats a joke right ? Please say it is.

warspite1

Yes it is - and the joke is on us [:(]

People are really weird.

I have a statue of Bismark not far away. Mind you Bismark was (and is to some point) universally hated here in the south (like all Prussians). Its a bit like a Lincoln statue in the US south I think.

Yet no one makes a fuss about it. I also dont mind. Bismark is Bismark and whats done is done. *shrugs*

Sincerly I hope these people come to their mind.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin



Thats a joke right ? Please say it is.

warspite1

Yes it is - and the joke is on us [:(]

People are really weird.

I have a statue of Bismark not far away. Mind you Bismark was (and is to some point) universally hated here in the south (like all Prussians). Its a bit like a Lincoln statue in the US south I think.

Yet no one makes a fuss about it. I also dont mind. Bismark is Bismark and whats done is done. *shrugs*

Sincerly I hope these people come to their mind.

The difference is a large population of "people of color" in the US who have been made hypersensitive to the past injustices to their ancestors through the present issues with police, lack of equality in education, etc. , etc. Add in political harangues on both sides that make them fearful and angry and they want to erase all reminders of their pain. I sympathize, but I think monuments to soldiers who fought honorably should stand with a plaque or two to explain the context of their service. R E Lee was not fighting for the practice of slavery, he was fighting for the rights of the citizens of Virginia to choose what policies their government would follow. I'm sure if Virginians voted to end slavery R E Lee would have fought just as hard for his state.

What I do get out of the current situation is that "loaded" rhetoric inflames and both politicians and media should try to choose words carefully. People will listen to the other side once their emotions settle down.

[John 3rd]

Lee actually was in favor of freeing the slaves and letting them fight for the Confederacy and their own freedom.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

ORIGINAL: warspite1


warspite1

Yes it is - and the joke is on us [:(]

People are really weird.

I have a statue of Bismark not far away. Mind you Bismark was (and is to some point) universally hated here in the south (like all Prussians). Its a bit like a Lincoln statue in the US south I think.

Yet no one makes a fuss about it. I also dont mind. Bismark is Bismark and whats done is done. *shrugs*

Sincerly I hope these people come to their mind.

The difference is a large population of "people of color" in the US who have been made hypersensitive to the past injustices to their ancestors through the present issues with police, lack of equality in education, etc. , etc. Add in political harangues on both sides that make them fearful and angry and they want to erase all reminders of their pain. I sympathize, but I think monuments to soldiers who fought honorably should stand with a plaque or two to explain the context of their service. R E Lee was not fighting for the practice of slavery, he was fighting for the rights of the citizens of Virginia to choose what policies their government would follow. I'm sure if Virginians voted to end slavery R E Lee would have fought just as hard for his state.

What I do get out of the current situation is that "loaded" rhetoric inflames and both politicians and media should try to choose words carefully. People will listen to the other side once their emotions settle down.

warspite1

Yes but that's Lee. How about Washington? Now unlike Lee he is more more central to US and US history because well, he's George Washington. Mount Rushmore. The Dollar Bill. The name of the US capital. The name of a US state. How many schools and public buildings are named after the First President of the United States?

Guess what? The First President was a slave owner. If Horatio Nelson is on the list - where does that leave George Washington? This is why I ask Where does it end?

This is now a morale crusade by the oh so worthy and self-righteous (and ignorant), and there is only one place it will end.

[Canoerebel]

I've talked and typed way too much today. Waaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy too much. I've irritated myself.

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've talked and typed way too much today. Waaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy too much. I've irritated myself.

Cortisone cream is good for that. [:)]

[Panther Bait]

Looks like you can add Christopher Columbus (mean to indigenous people) and Ulysses S. Grant (anti-Semite) to the list of "symbols of hate".

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/christopher-columbus-statue-new-york-city-could-be-considered-removal-n795316?cid=par-xfinity_20170823

[John 3rd]

We ain't gonna have anything left...
[8|]