Revisionist History-OT

[Canoerebel]

If the thread spins out of control (it probably will, as entropy is the normal order of things), the thread will be locked.

But I sure am getting a lot out of it. When I read the thoughts of people who I respect but who disagree with me on a point it prompts me to sit down, examine my beliefs, and make a good faith effort to assure that what I believe is based on logic and good reasoning and deferring when possible to the viewpoints of others.

This forum has been the best I've ever known. There are a remarkable number of people here whose opinions I respect immensely. And to get input from people far, far away (Minnesota, Germany, Scotland, Singapore, Korea, et al) is most helpful and interesting. Living here in my rural southern community in which I have no television or smart phone means that you guys (and gal) are pretty significant threads in the "fabric of my community."

[witpqs]

entropy is the normal order of things

Dan,

Quite off topic this observation, but in spite of your prodigious work with words that turn of phrase likely towers over anything you published! Greyjoy eat your heart out! [:D]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Trugrit

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58



This is the crux, that all the "Washington, Jefferson . . ." apologists miss. The Confederacy was a traitorous enterprise. It was never a nation (see USSC decision.) The officers of the CSA, especially Lee, were traitors by the plain wording of the US Constitution. Put the statues in museums, with plaques explaining they were traitors. Get them off public streets and out of public parks.

Yes, but the American Revolution was a traitorous enterprise.

warspite1

Well said. I can't believe how many "tear down the monuments apologists" simply miss this fundamental point. Depending on whose 'side' you sit, someone is going to be a bad guy to someone. So for example, depending on whose side you sit, one of Charles I or Oliver Cromwell was a traitor. The 1640's were a massively important time in British history. There are monuments, there are memorials to both. That time needs to be remembered. So does the US Civil War.

Condoleezza Rice - you put it perfectly.

warspite1

One other pertinent point on the US Civil War. This was a war fought between unequal sides its true, but the southern states were still a sizeable group in numbers of states and population within. Had they, their populace and their leaders been shunned, vilified and hounded after the war with no memorials or statues to their fallen, their leaders, allowed, how would that make them feel? Part of a Union? Instead the Union stayed together, the US grew strong united and those descendants of the southern states can remain proud of their country (USA) but also their south, their state or whatever, while remaining within the Union. That was - whether wholly by design or by luck - the sensible way to deal with the defeated. Had they tried the age old way perhaps resentment and anger (and fear) would have simply festered and the USA would be very different to the one we know today.

[AcePylut]

ORIGINAL: Trugrit
I’m a southerner and I don’t have a dog in this fight. I don’t care if the monuments stay or go but what about me?

What about you? You didn't fight against the nation 150 years ago, so nothing. I don't blame kids for the choices their parents, or ancestors, made.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

ORIGINAL: Trugrit
I’m a southerner and I don’t have a dog in this fight. I don’t care if the monuments stay or go but what about me?

What about you? You didn't fight against the nation 150 years ago, so nothing. I don't blame kids for the choices their parents, or ancestors, made.

warspite1

Yes but in fairness your opinion doesn't count - you wanted 50 Shades of Grey to be made. Don't think we don't remember....



[:D]

[AcePylut]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

ORIGINAL: Trugrit
I’m a southerner and I don’t have a dog in this fight. I don’t care if the monuments stay or go but what about me?

What about you? You didn't fight against the nation 150 years ago, so nothing. I don't blame kids for the choices their parents, or ancestors, made.

warspite1

Yes but in fairness your opinion doesn't count - you wanted 50 Shades of Grey to be made. Don't think we don't remember....



[:D]

[:D] [&o]

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

ORIGINAL: Trugrit
I’m a southerner and I don’t have a dog in this fight. I don’t care if the monuments stay or go but what about me?

What about you? You didn't fight against the nation 150 years ago, so nothing. I don't blame kids for the choices their parents, or ancestors, made.

warspite1

Yes but in fairness your opinion doesn't count - you wanted 50 Shades of Grey to be made. Don't think we don't remember....



[:D]

Of course he wanted that film to be made because he knew it would include what counts. The only thing really important.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: AcePylut




What about you? You didn't fight against the nation 150 years ago, so nothing. I don't blame kids for the choices their parents, or ancestors, made.

warspite1

Yes but in fairness your opinion doesn't count - you wanted 50 Shades of Grey to be made. Don't think we don't remember....



[:D]

Of course he wanted that film to be made because he knew it would include what counts. The only thing really important.

warspite1

You mean a decent theme tune?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJtDXIazrMo

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: AcePylut




What about you? You didn't fight against the nation 150 years ago, so nothing. I don't blame kids for the choices their parents, or ancestors, made.

warspite1

Yes but in fairness your opinion doesn't count - you wanted 50 Shades of Grey to be made. Don't think we don't remember....



[:D]

[:D] [&o]

warspite1

I thought it was a Civil War movie - 50 States of Grey - supposing the south had won..... My eyesight is not what it was...

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

For the sake of forum peace just drop this topic. Nothing good will come out of it.

I agree this is a fraught topic, made more so by recent events. But I could not remain silent in the face of so many outrageous posts.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Trugrit

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

I, personally, think it's absolutely ridiculous to have statues of men that tried to destroy our nation, on "gov't" property.

I don't care if Robert E. Lee was for or against slavery, I don't care if he was a good man or a bad man by todays or 1860s standard of judgement. In my opinion, the man was a traitor, nothing more nothing less. As as a result, not one single gov't penny or parcel of gov't land should should have his (or any other Confederate leader) image, likeness, bust, statue etc. on it... unless it's in a museum or a history book.

This is the crux, that all the "Washington, Jefferson . . ." apologists miss. The Confederacy was a traitorous enterprise. It was never a nation (see USSC decision.) The officers of the CSA, especially Lee, were traitors by the plain wording of the US Constitution. Put the statues in museums, with plaques explaining they were traitors. Get them off public streets and out of public parks.

Yes, but the American Revolution was a traitorous enterprise.

I'm perfectly fine with England refusing to erect statues of Washington or Jefferson.

Famous people get the monuments.

That's not the test for traitors.

Almost every single individual that has ever had a monument erected to him or her
Is a Son of a Bitch in one area or another. It is almost an historical requirement because
Famous people are often complex like that.

Again, not the test for treason. I don't like everything John D. Rockefeller did, but I'm OK with a statue.

The problem is where does it end?

It ends with the traitors.

What is the next step? I’m a southerner and I don’t have a dog in this fight. I don’t care if the monuments stay or go but what about me?

My ancestors fought for the south. In your book they were all traitors. When the war was over they returned to their homes and farms and had children. In your book they were they still traitors even after they took the oath of allegiance. I’m a direct descendent of those people. I have their DNA in my body and bloodstream.

They were traitors, yes. They were citizens of the United States, and they waged war on their country. If they had statues I'd want them taken down. They don't, so I'd settle for an understanding that what they did was a terrible mistake and the system they sought to perpetuate was the most terrible thing humans can ever do to other humans. Far worse than killing them.

But their leaders deserve no praise. They knew better. Lee was a West Point graduate and a senior officer. No slack.

You could say without reservation that I’m a living monument to those traitors and slave owners.

You are living. Not a taxpayer supported monument on a city street, however. When young black children pass you they don't think what your ancestors did to theirs. I grew up in the South too, 100 miles from Richmond. We were forced to field trip to Battle Abbey in Richmond and be fed CSA propaganda. The black kids too. I wonder how that made them feel?

There are direct descendents of Jefferson and Lee living in our country.
There are black people living in America that have Thomas Jefferson’s DNA in them.

Slavery is a separate issue from treason. Conflating them gives apologists a place to hide. I don't. Jefferson had slaves. I graduated from the university he created. He wrote the Declaration. He was a good president. He probably once cheated at cards. I don't know. But he wasn't a traitor to the US. And I very much doubt if he had been alive in 1860 he would have still have had slaves OR supported the CSA. Ditto Washington. The CSA, whose constitution encapsulated a permanent slavery, was at the ass-end of slavery history. Cuba was late, and Brazil was the late 1880s, but everywhere else in the West slavery was over by 1860. Yet the South wanted it forever, and forever, and forever.

What are you going to do with us living monuments?

Hope you come to understand what the argument is about.

Maybe we will have to wear an armband. Instead of the Star of David maybe a small Confederate flag
On the armband to signify we have at least one drop of slave owner blood in our systems.

Sigh.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: warspite1


warspite1

Yes but in fairness your opinion doesn't count - you wanted 50 Shades of Grey to be made. Don't think we don't remember....



[:D]

Of course he wanted that film to be made because he knew it would include what counts. The only thing really important.

warspite1

You mean a decent theme tune?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJtDXIazrMo

Of course not.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Orm



Of course he wanted that film to be made because he knew it would include what counts. The only thing really important.

warspite1

You mean a decent theme tune?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJtDXIazrMo

Of course not.

warspite1

Well I've never seen the film but I understand the "How's your father" was a bit rubbish.

Did you not like the Ellie Goulding song then?

[Trugrit]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Trugrit

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58



This is the crux, that all the "Washington, Jefferson . . ." apologists miss. The Confederacy was a traitorous enterprise. It was never a nation (see USSC decision.) The officers of the CSA, especially Lee, were traitors by the plain wording of the US Constitution. Put the statues in museums, with plaques explaining they were traitors. Get them off public streets and out of public parks.

Yes, but the American Revolution was a traitorous enterprise.

I'm perfectly fine with England refusing to erect statues of Washington or Jefferson.

Famous people get the monuments.

That's not the test for traitors.

Almost every single individual that has ever had a monument erected to him or her
Is a Son of a Bitch in one area or another. It is almost an historical requirement because
Famous people are often complex like that.

Again, not the test for treason. I don't like everything John D. Rockefeller did, but I'm OK with a statue.

The problem is where does it end?

It ends with the traitors.

What is the next step? I’m a southerner and I don’t have a dog in this fight. I don’t care if the monuments stay or go but what about me?

My ancestors fought for the south. In your book they were all traitors. When the war was over they returned to their homes and farms and had children. In your book they were they still traitors even after they took the oath of allegiance. I’m a direct descendent of those people. I have their DNA in my body and bloodstream.

They were traitors, yes. They were citizens of the United States, and they waged war on their country. If they had statues I'd want them taken down. They don't, so I'd settle for an understanding that what they did was a terrible mistake and the system they sought to perpetuate was the most terrible thing humans can ever do to other humans. Far worse than killing them.

But their leaders deserve no praise. They knew better. Lee was a West Point graduate and a senior officer. No slack.

You could say without reservation that I’m a living monument to those traitors and slave owners.

You are living. Not a taxpayer supported monument on a city street, however. When young black children pass you they don't think what your ancestors did to theirs. I grew up in the South too, 100 miles from Richmond. We were forced to field trip to Battle Abbey in Richmond and be fed CSA propaganda. The black kids too. I wonder how that made them feel?

There are direct descendents of Jefferson and Lee living in our country.
There are black people living in America that have Thomas Jefferson’s DNA in them.

Slavery is a separate issue from treason. Conflating them gives apologists a place to hide. I don't. Jefferson had slaves. I graduated from the university he created. He wrote the Declaration. He was a good president. He probably once cheated at cards. I don't know. But he wasn't a traitor to the US. And I very much doubt if he had been alive in 1860 he would have still have had slaves OR supported the CSA. Ditto Washington. The CSA, whose constitution encapsulated a permanent slavery, was at the ass-end of slavery history. Cuba was late, and Brazil was the late 1880s, but everywhere else in the West slavery was over by 1860. Yet the South wanted it forever, and forever, and forever.

What are you going to do with us living monuments?

Hope you come to understand what the argument is about.

Maybe we will have to wear an armband. Instead of the Star of David maybe a small Confederate flag
On the armband to signify we have at least one drop of slave owner blood in our systems.

Sigh.

I know full well what the debate is about.

It must be nice that you are able to read the minds of black children.
I wonder if you can read the minds of other Americans as well?

Interesting that you want the monuments removed not because of slavery but because they were traitors.

Like I say I have no dog in this fight. I’m good either way. We can take a vote on it. I’m undecided.
I don’t think they should be taken down in the dead of night. That is cowardly.

They should be taken down in broad daylight so children can watch.

Know that if we take a vote they are likely to stay up as recent polls show a majority of Americans
Including a majority of black Americans want them to stay up.
http://dailycaller.com/2017/08/17/poll- ... s-removed/

You don’t strike me as the type, being able to mind read like you do, that wants to take a vote.
You strike me as the type that wants to do it in the dead of night with a mask on.

K

[Orm]

Be nice, please.

[fcooke]

Folks - this is a very reasonable forum and I have great appreciation for the scope of history intellect here. I do not post often but have been here for over a decade. We always have seemed to appreciate each other over time, so I would ask that we drop the negative side of the dialogue and keep it professional. I am first generation Irish so Warspite could have issues with that (I don't think he does), or, if I was in Boston, where I grew up, 250 odd years ago, I would be a traitor too. So leave the memorials alone. The men fought for what they believed in. Many of them died in the process. As someone mentioned, who knows how history will judge us a couple of hundred of years down the line.

[Zap]

I disagree with the Traitor comment. The south followed the untested mechanism in the Constitution to secede from the Union. Earlier in history the north too contemplated seceding from the Union over the war of 1812. They were not Traitors.

[Orm]

I find the traitor discussion tough when it is a civil war. Doesn't the winner decide on which side was the traitorous one? And if you do consider the South traitorous, wasn't US created by treason if we use that standard?

[fcooke]

My forum mates have helped make my clumsy point.....

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: fcooke

Folks - this is a very reasonable forum and I have great appreciation for the scope of history intellect here. I do not post often but have been here for over a decade. We always have seemed to appreciate each other over time, so I would ask that we drop the negative side of the dialogue and keep it professional. I am first generation Irish so Warspite could have issues with that (I don't think he does), or, if I was in Boston, where I grew up, 250 odd years ago, I would be a traitor too. So leave the memorials alone. The men fought for what they believed in. Many of them died in the process. As someone mentioned, who knows how history will judge us a couple of hundred of years down the line.

warspite1

I have no issues with the Irish. I am English Protestant, Mrs W is the daughter of Irish Catholic parents (and she identifies more as Irish than English herself). Thus my little warspites - who are Catholic - have English/Irish Protestant/Catholic grandparents. Whilst being English, my little cruisers have been taught to be equally proud of their English and Irish heritage.

The only 'issue' I have with the whole Irish thing is an overwhelming feeling of sadness because of the tantalising thought that it could have all been handled so differently - on both sides - but then that's probably just hindsight isn't it? In fact, for things to have panned out differently, those responsible at various junctures along the way, would have needed enlightened thinking that probably was just not available at the time. But then that is a lot of what this thread is about. [:(]