OT: Inedited picture of Japan Navy Power at Sea

[MakeeLearn]

American warships after the Battle of Twotimingbasterd.

[Rising-Sun]

ORIGINAL: scout1

ORIGINAL: Admiral DadMan

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

1-"Aircraft carrier Akagi shortly after leaving Port Stirling, Celebes for the Indian Ocean, 26 March 1942. Note other carriers and battleships (probably the 4 ships of the Kongo-class) in the background."

2-"flight deck scene HIJMS Akagi in 1942.

Unusual colourised photo of Akagi(Above), clearly showing splinter protection to the bridge area. It is slightly confusing, I know, but this is a view looking AFT along the flight deck, Akagi being rare in having her island on the port side. There is a very powerful force of ships astern of Akagi in this photo, with four other carriers and four capital ships visible. The second carrier, the one immediately ahead of the four battleships, also has a port side island, which identifies her as Hiryu. I am assuming this photo was taken during the preparations for the operation intended to destroy the remainder of the US fleet and capture Midway, which took place in June 1942. Akagi and Hiryu were both among the Japanese carriers lost at Midway."


3-"Photograph taken from the deck of Akagi, the rest of the carriers, from left to right, are: Kaga, Shokaku, Zuikaku, Hiryu ..."

4-"Other ships visible:

CarDiv 2 (Soryu, Hiryu)
3rd Battleship Squadron (Kongo, Haruna, Hiei, Kirishima)
CarDiv 5 (Shokaku, Zuikaku)"


https://nl.pinterest.com/pin/769130442581564408/

If this was taken March 26, 1942 at Staring Bay Java, then Kaga couldn't be in this photo. She was at Sasebo, about to enter drydock on March 27.

Based on the low freeboard profiles of the two left-most carriers, I'd have to agree that they are Soryu and Hiryu, with Shokaku/Zuikaku bringing up the rear. The heavies do indeed appear to be the four Kongo class of BatDiv3.

For those who think the first two carriers are the Soryu and Hiryu ..... Why are the Islands on different sides of each vessel ? Unless the second one is traveling in the opposite direction to ram the battlewagon ;>

Believe it have something to do with design, when they laid down the engines and boilers. So the uptake and funnels going up and on the edge. Probably opposite from sisters and it would make easier to recognize too.

[BBfanboy]

There must have been a reason for building Hiryu to a different layout than her sister Soryu.

My understanding is that the placement of the island superstructure on the starboard side came about because the torque of the airplanes propeller would tend to make it roll to the left if something went wrong - i.e. a crashing aircraft would be less likely to hit an island on the starboard side of the ship than the port side.

However, lots of experimentation was going on for both CVs and their aircraft, and it could be that there were aircraft with propellers rotating in the opposite direction or that someone decided that air turbulence from the island superstructure would affect aircraft less if the island was on the port side. In the picture shown, both Akagi and Hiryu have port-side islands. I don't know if any other navy experimented with this, although some tried to make do without an island superstructure at all.

[adarbrauner]

So well what about this?

At this time IJN Carriers should have been at Tawi Tawi ("trying to") training new aircrews before the Battle of the Philippine Sea.

But, alas, aren't they worried at all about subs threats, judging from this picture??

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

So well what about this?

At this time IJN Carriers should have been at Tawi Tawi ("trying to") training new aircrews before the Battle of the Philippine Sea.

But, alas, aren't they worried at all about subs threats, judging from this picture??

I don't see anything in that picture that says the IJN is not worried about subs. What are you getting at?

[Xargun]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

Range Finder - Fire Direction/Control Station I guess, for the AA...

That "drum like structure" looks like a larger version of the searchlight just above it - presumably to light up the flight deck for night ops.

Both wrong.. Its so obvious. Its the Sake barrel for the pilots so they can have a drink before taking off and after landing [:D]

[Rising-Sun]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

So well what about this?

At this time IJN Carriers should have been at Tawi Tawi ("trying to") training new aircrews before the Battle of the Philippine Sea.

But, alas, aren't they worried at all about subs threats, judging from this picture??

I don't see anything in that picture that says the IJN is not worried about subs. What are you getting at?

I think he meant, how risky for the Japanese Navy leaving the carriers or any capitol ships like this. Yes it would be sitting ducks for the submarines. In most cases they have floatplanes on patrol and torpedo nets around those ships (mostly).

Some cases, they did that on purpose and see if they can catch any submarines if they dare. Planes and/or destroyers would get them, if they are nearby. Would be too risky, even if I was a sub captain and want to take a shot at it.

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: RisingSun

ORIGINAL: scout1

ORIGINAL: Admiral DadMan



If this was taken March 26, 1942 at Staring Bay Java, then Kaga couldn't be in this photo. She was at Sasebo, about to enter drydock on March 27.

Based on the low freeboard profiles of the two left-most carriers, I'd have to agree that they are Soryu and Hiryu, with Shokaku/Zuikaku bringing up the rear. The heavies do indeed appear to be the four Kongo class of BatDiv3.

For those who think the first two carriers are the Soryu and Hiryu ..... Why are the Islands on different sides of each vessel ? Unless the second one is traveling in the opposite direction to ram the battlewagon ;>

Believe it have something to do with design, when they laid down the engines and boilers. So the uptake and funnels going up and on the edge. Probably opposite from sisters and it would make easier to recognize too.

Read Kaigun or Shattered Sword and your questions are all answered.

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

There must have been a reason for building Hiryu to a different layout than her sister Soryu.

They weren't sisters unless they had two different mothers but the same father.

From Wikipedia:

Hiryū was one of two large carriers approved for construction under the 1931–32 Supplementary Program. Originally designed as the sister ship of Sōryū, her design was enlarged and modified in light of the Tomozuru and Fourth Fleet Incidents in 1934–35 that revealed many IJN ships were top-heavy, unstable and structurally weak. Her forecastle was raised and her hull strengthened. Other changes involved increasing her beam, displacement, and armor protection.[4]

The ship had a length of 227.4 meters (746 ft 1 in) overall, a beam of 22.3 meters (73 ft 2 in) and a draft of 7.8 meters (25 ft 7 in). She displaced 17,600 metric tons (17,300 long tons) at standard load and 20,570 metric tons (20,250 long tons) at normal load. Her crew consisted of 1,100 officers and enlisted men.[5]

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: RisingSun

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

So well what about this?

At this time IJN Carriers should have been at Tawi Tawi ("trying to") training new aircrews before the Battle of the Philippine Sea.

But, alas, aren't they worried at all about subs threats, judging from this picture??

I don't see anything in that picture that says the IJN is not worried about subs. What are you getting at?

I think he meant, how risky for the Japanese Navy leaving the carriers or any capitol ships like this. Yes it would be sitting ducks for the submarines. In most cases they have floatplanes on patrol and torpedo nets around those ships (mostly).

Some cases, they did that on purpose and see if they can catch any submarines if they dare. Planes and/or destroyers would get them, if they are nearby. Would be too risky, even if I was a sub captain and want to take a shot at it.

They are apparently in port so I assumed there are likely anti-sub nets at the entrance. The picture itself does not show what could be ahead or behind the moored ships - presumably some DDs and harbour craft are present. So there isn't enough info to draw the conclusion that the IJN was not worried about subs.
Since early 1944 the US subs would have been present nearly everywhere in the empire, and proving quite effective with better torps and great crews.

[adarbrauner]

BBFanboy, that's not a port - they are off port, close to, at an anchorage nearby Tawi Tawi....

Can you discern any anti sub nets?? I cannot; none visible;

"The picture itself does not show what could be ahead or behind the moored ships - presumably some DDs and harbour craft are present."

I'd like very much to see that indeed, because here they are not present at all!

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

BBFanboy, that's not a port - they are off port, close to, at an anchorage nearby Tawi Tawi....

Can you discern any anti sub nets?? I cannot; none visible;

"The picture itself does not show what could be ahead or behind the moored ships - presumably some DDs and harbour craft are present."

I'd like very much to see that indeed, because here they are not present at all!

Some lagoons are very wide and you cannot see the islands on the other side. I also do not assume the picture is necessarily looking toward the entrance of the anchorage, where the nets and tender would be. It all comes down to the picture being ambiguous and you can interpret it either way.

[MakeeLearn]

Tawi Tawi

[adarbrauner]

Well, the channels between the islands are well defendable, that's true. A good site.

[adarbrauner]

And here is a WONDERFUL example of the game means with a "base", level 1 port, or maybe even dot.

And, I reiterate, the current system of a single base-airport fits and suits to a small island, but not to a hex containing effective 40 mile x 40 or close to; to be implemented, hopefully, with next evolution of this game

[adarbrauner]

Some clarification, Tanambogo actually is a small islet very close to Tulagi, which frankly isn't that bigger. This still gives an idea of the dimensions and features of the bases in small islands, historically.

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

And here is a WONDERFUL example of the game means with a "base", level 1 port, or maybe even dot.

And, I reiterate, the current system of a single base-airport fits and suits to a small island, but not to a hex containing effective 40 mile x 40 or close to; to be implemented, hopefully, with next evolution of this game

A dot base has no facilities, it just has the potential to have facilities. That would be a level 1 port with 0 airfield base capability.

Bill

[MakeeLearn]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

And here is a WONDERFUL example of the game means with a "base", level 1 port, or maybe even dot.

And, I reiterate, the current system of a single base-airport fits and suits to a small island, but not to a hex containing effective 40 mile x 40 or close to; to be implemented, hopefully, with next evolution of this game

A dot base has no facilities, it just has the potential to have facilities. That would be a level 1 port with 0 airfield base capability.

Bill

You could put a 100 or more ships "at port" there, just not "at dock".??

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: RisingSun

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

So well what about this?

At this time IJN Carriers should have been at Tawi Tawi ("trying to") training new aircrews before the Battle of the Philippine Sea.

But, alas, aren't they worried at all about subs threats, judging from this picture??

I don't see anything in that picture that says the IJN is not worried about subs. What are you getting at?

I think he meant, how risky for the Japanese Navy leaving the carriers or any capitol ships like this. Yes it would be sitting ducks for the submarines. In most cases they have floatplanes on patrol and torpedo nets around those ships (mostly).

Some cases, they did that on purpose and see if they can catch any submarines if they dare. Planes and/or destroyers would get them, if they are nearby. Would be too risky, even if I was a sub captain and want to take a shot at it.

[BBfanboy]

Thank you, Sir Gorn! The lagoon on the left is along the lines of what I imagined the IJN would consider a good anchorage for their major ships. Even if nets were not available, small boat patrols or deep mines would be ways of keeping subs away.
For the US, Ultra information would give them the dates of sortie and approximate route to destination so they did not have to risk sending subs into narrow waters. It's no coincidence that Cavalla was in the right place at the right time!