French Kamikazee

[Amadeus]

39 campaign early 1940:
When Italy coming to Axis the Allies (together with the French Navy) could take out the Italian Navy completely from the game without many losses. What is the best way to counter that gambit? In SC2 a harbour itself gives a could protect against attacks but this seems not to be the case anymore. Any ideas?

[GeneralJackDRipper]

I've been experimenting with different tactics on how best to use the Italians. I'll start a new thread but essentially I've found their navy is worthless until MAYBE late in the game after researching all naval-warfare related categories. Even then, the royal navy tends to make quick work of my ships with their Carriers.

If you think the Italian ships take too much damage in port, you won't want to see what happens when they're caught out in open waters by the Royal Navy. One thing that might help their survivability would be to upgrade them past the 5 strength most start with. That should help their survivability in port. Though again, I'm still figuring out how to squeeze some use out of them while they're still on the top of the ocean.

ORIGINAL: Amadeus

39 campaign early 1940:
When Italy coming to Axis the Allies (together with the French Navy) could take out the Italian Navy completely from the game without many losses. What is the best way to counter that gambit? In SC2 a harbour itself gives a could protect against attacks but this seems not to be the case anymore. Any ideas?

[OxfordGuy3]

So, any strategies for where to actually put the Italian Fleet before France falls? I've tried concentrating them up near Venice/Pola/Fiume and providing some air cover, but even there they get pretty savaged, as there aren't enough ports up there to put all their ships is. Whereas if you put each unit in a port, then providing air cover for all of them is harder and it's more dangerous to try to concentrate them later, as they can be more easily surprised and picked off one-by-one. It's not really a problem versus the AI, but seems very difficult to keep the fleet more or less intact against a human player.

Incidentally, I think ports should provide more protection to ships than they do in-game, it should be almost impossible to damage a fleet in port, with surface ships anyway.

[GeneralJackDRipper]

I agree, at least against other naval units. I think air units should be able to do more damage than other naval units to ships in port.

ORIGINAL: oxford_guy

I think ports should provide more protection to ships than they do in-game, it should be almost impossible to damage a fleet in port, with surface ships anyway.

[Leadwieght]

Once it's clear that the Italians will enter the war a few turns before the French surrender, then I think stationing as much of the Reggia Marina as possible in the upper Adriatic and sending a German fighter to provide additional air cover is the best way to protect them. I think there are four port hexes, so you can protect all your battleships. The Allies will be lucky to sink more than one battleship in ports protected by air

I've seen players hide the Italian fleet around Rhodes, but there's only one port there, so if the British discover them, it can be a slaughter.

You could also buy an Italian AA unit and station it in Trieste or Venice. That would help curtail losses from carrier attacks on the ships in adjacent ports and coastal hexes. A German AA could also be Operated in after Italian DoW.

I played one game where the Italians did not do a DoW until the turn before the French surrendered, so my French fleet had no chance to kamikaze. Not sure how my opponent managed that, but it was perhaps the most effective way to stop cut Italian losses.

[Amadeus]

ORIGINAL: Leadwieght


Once it's clear that the Italians will enter the war a few turns before the French surrender, then I think stationing as much of the Reggia Marina as possible in the upper Adriatic and sending a German fighter to provide additional air cover is the best way to protect them. I think there are four port hexes, so you can protect all your battleships. The Allies will be lucky to sink more than one battleship in ports protected by air

I've seen players hide the Italian fleet around Rhodes, but there's only one port there, so if the British discover them, it can be a slaughter.

You could also buy an Italian AA unit and station it in Trieste or Venice. That would help curtail losses from carrier attacks on the ships in adjacent ports and coastal hexes. A German AA could also be Operated in after Italian DoW.

I played one game where the Italians did not do a DoW until the turn before the French surrendered, so my French fleet had no chance to kamikaze. Not sure how my opponent managed that, but it was perhaps the most effective way to stop cut Italian losses.

All in all I could save most of my ships in the game we playing Leadwieght. And - there were some damages on the Royal Navy too. Relocating some Air Units is enough when placing the ships in the upper Adriatic. Thus I answered my own question.

[OxfordGuy3]

ORIGINAL: Amadeus

ORIGINAL: Leadwieght


Once it's clear that the Italians will enter the war a few turns before the French surrender, then I think stationing as much of the Reggia Marina as possible in the upper Adriatic and sending a German fighter to provide additional air cover is the best way to protect them. I think there are four port hexes, so you can protect all your battleships. The Allies will be lucky to sink more than one battleship in ports protected by air

I've seen players hide the Italian fleet around Rhodes, but there's only one port there, so if the British discover them, it can be a slaughter.

You could also buy an Italian AA unit and station it in Trieste or Venice. That would help curtail losses from carrier attacks on the ships in adjacent ports and coastal hexes. A German AA could also be Operated in after Italian DoW.

I played one game where the Italians did not do a DoW until the turn before the French surrendered, so my French fleet had no chance to kamikaze. Not sure how my opponent managed that, but it was perhaps the most effective way to stop cut Italian losses.

All in all I could save most of my ships in the game we playing Leadwieght. And - there were some damages on the Royal Navy too. Relocating some Air Units is enough when placing the ships in the upper Adriatic. Thus I answered my own question.

But unless you leave ALL your ships in port, some of them are going to get sunk in all likelihood, and there's only 4-5 ports in the upper Adriatic - so where do you locate the rest of yours? Placing AA units next to some of the ports isn't a bad idea, though.

[Amadeus]

Allies could attack you either but the counter is hard too. Adriatic is good cause you could build better "front lines" and Allies could only attack the first line. On the next turn you could recover and swap ships. The allied opponent could not do much about this. Axis Bomber could attack damaged ships and carriers are vulnerable to Fighters too.

[OxfordGuy3]

That's not far off what I did

[nnason]

two other counters move some Ger subs to the Med and buy some Naval Air.

[Sugar]

- Ships benefit largely from reinforcements, 1 strength 10 battleship is better than 2 strength 8.
- italian BBs are not worth less than british, even against BBs with NW1 the prediction will be 4:5 (as long as you're attacking; attack values are always higher than defense values). There's also a chance to reduce damage if the enemy ship is fleeing, but only if you're attacking.
- ports are no safe place, shore bombardement does if successfull the same amount of damage as normal combat, but without retaliation. In my game against Fafnir the whole RM was sunk in port after 3 turns. Subs and carriers do also damage in ports.
- a kill/loss ratio of 1:1.2 in favour of the Brits is a success for the RM, even if they lose all the ships and have to fight french ships. Every sunken french ships reduces french NM
- researching italian naval weaponry is unaffordable and also redundant imho; you won't get out of the Med. with those beautifully upgraded ships without Gibraltar, and even then you`ll need air superiority to succeed
- a naval bomber is nevertheless affordable as well as valuable in addition to the german, even without NW or HQ attachement, just for scouting purposes. Spotting highly benefits from Long Range Research.
- the placement in the Adria as shown in Amadeus' image can be reached by german fighters without expensive operatings

[Dorky8]

Couldn't the Axis bring in some subs and bombers trap the French get lotsa experience, not accept Vichy & attack Algiers?

I don't like the kamikazee french ships or Italians scouting with ships before they enter either. But there are counters.

[elxaime]

The British can commit most of their naval assets early to join the French suicide fleet in the Mediterranean. The Italians probably need to turtle in the Adriatic as described above. The Germans will need to send either Luftwaffe or German subs and Luftwaffe probably best. This is a problem before France falls since the German air is needed to ensure a smooth conquest. German subs are too easily trapped once they are committed to the Med and they are better used on the open seas.

I do think this is a design issue though. While it is great to have players be given the maximum flexibility, in this case the French fleet is treated by everyone as throw-away.

I think an elegant solution might be as follows. Alter the Allied Mers-al-Kebir decision to only pop up if at least eighty percent of French naval strength is still alive. If those conditions are not fulfilled, the French fleet is assumed to have been so heavily damaged as to affect the balance of power for the armistice negotiations, resulting in better terms for Germany that manifest as a pro-Axis diplomatic shift by Spain and the Vichy territories of five percent.

Historically, even after the armistice there was a contest for French sympathies and some respect for remaining French naval power. The Allies can still decide to use the French navy as suicide attackers, but this will leave a surrendered France with less to bargain with and more at the mercy of Hitler.