Purchasing

[RobW]

OK, a lot of questions on here relate to tactics and "what-ifs". I have problems even before this!!! I have played a number of PBEM games now and not won yet. I know my tactics are not up to much to start with but my purchasing is dire (IMHO).

Question2

1) does anyone have a method on how they do their purchasing. What is a good mix - I try to keep a wide spread but sometimes rely too much on 1 type of weapon (usually relatively static ATGs).

2) do excellent tactics make up for a bad mix of units? Could the likes of Viking2 or RBrunsman win with their tactics playing with a weak force

3) what is the best way to learn - is it PBEM, against the computer or playing both sides myself?

[Frank W.]

1. depends completly on terrain, tactical situation, visibility etc....

2. yes, but in a limit. i would say in desert or open terrain with only infantry and light armor against tigers and panthers don´t help even the best tactics. if you have enough arty and air it would perhaps make a difference then of course.

3. all of it

[rbrunsman]

3) I played solely against the computer for years and years before "finding" PBEM. I contend that if you start a long campaign (with the country of your choice) at an early date against the computer, it forces you to learn good tactics. e.g. There is no sense of invincability when you have PzIIIs with only 37mm guns against Matildas. You can win with inferior equipment (the Germans certainly did in N. Africa).

2) If the force is designed for the terrain, and is a balanced force (i.e. not all tanks, not all infantry, not all jeeps, etc.) as Frank said, I could probably do well no matter what I was given. An equal point game is going to put both players on an even playing field.

1) I check the map. Decide if the field is open or wooded. What's the visibility (low vis = very few AT guns)? Then I come up with general % distribution of armor, infantry and recon (don't skimp on scouts!). I decide if I will be agressive or meticulous in my attack and buy accordingly.

Quick tips:
Learn what your equipment can do for you and what it cannot.
Know the strengths and weaknesses of each country. (I know the Germans and US equipment, but I'm only good at killing Russian equipment, not using it).
Understand the possible consequences of each of your actions.
Offer sacrifical lambs to draw your opponent away from your key equipment (I do this all the time).
Keep track of what you've seen of your opponent's forces and what you've killed. You can thereby determine if he has a large force in reserve, if he is weak, etc. (This takes time and I'm sure V2 doesn't do this because he plays so quickly. But meticulous care is what makes me good.)

[Gary Tatro]

Purchasing 101

First determine how many points you have. Take 10% and buy only artilary. Next if allowed in your game buy aircraft. Take the rest of your points and devide it up equally. Into three areas. Infantry, Armor, and Support.

Infantry areas include-Motor cycle units, infantry, AT-infantry, MG's, Calvery and sometimes halftracks, recon infantry and don't forget infiltrators.

Armor includes- tracked anti-tank tanks, Recon tanks, armored cars, Assualt tanks, light, medium and heavy tanks, flame tanks, and engineering tanks.

Support units- ATG's, SPAA, Halftracks, trucks, FO's, ammo trucks, ammo depots, anti-air craft (both tracked and stationary),

Typical breakdown in a 6000 point game with 2 sections of air would be like this
A0 HQ -- 200 points
Artillary -- 600 points
Aircraft -- 200 points
Armor -- 1666 points
Infantry -- 1666 points
Support -- 1666 points
Total -- 6000 points

Now you will lean one way or the other depending upon terrain and visibility. Say high visibility, you would take less infantry and more ATG support and tanks.
Low visibility and lots of trees you will take less ATG's, AA and tanks and more infantry and halftracks.

Most important is what to buy in what areas. Still supprises me that so many people do not look at the map or other info before purchasing during a PBEM game.

[Spearhead]

Well....IMHO there is nothing better than a good mass of tanks that are supported by stationary and long-range AT-guns.On infantry i always spend like 1000 points.I dont find infantry much of use in PBEM battles.And ofcourse.....u gotta love those TDs like M10,Ferdinand etc.Artillery is very important ofcourse and so are good tactics.All ur tanks may be wiped out one-by-one if u cant use them.

[Gary Tatro]

Originally posted by Spearhead
Well....IMHO there is nothing better than a good mass of tanks that are supported by stationary and long-range AT-guns.On infantry i always spend like 1000 points.I dont find infantry much of use in PBEM battles.

I am very interested in what kind of battles you play. The only time I could consider this a good tactic is if you were in the Desert and had a lot of visibility?

Infantry not much use in PBEM???? Well ok, I guess you have not played many PBEM battles then. :rolleyes:

[Belisarius]

Originally posted by Gary Tatro
I am very interested in what kind of battles you play. The only time I could consider this a good tactic is if you were in the Desert and had a lot of visibility?

Infantry not much use in PBEM???? Well ok, I guess you have not played many PBEM battles then. :rolleyes:

I second that remark.

Without infantry in PBEM, you have nothing to follow up and consolidate your gains and nothing to protect your armor with.

I'm infantry heavy. In my first battles, I went with a lot of armor, but now I can use more than half my points for infantry since, backed up with ATG or tanks, there's nothing infantry can't do.

grenadier grenadier...

[rbrunsman]

Originally posted by Gary Tatro
Typical breakdown in a 6000 point game with 2 sections of air would be like this
A0 HQ -- 200 points
Artillary -- 600 points
Aircraft -- 200 points
Armor -- 1666 points
Infantry -- 1666 points
Support -- 1666 points
Total -- 6000 points

Gary!! Aircraft counts as Arty! If you can hit an area that you can't see, that's indirect fire and that counts as arty in my book. For another thing, the only way to bring an airstrike is to "PLOT" a strike with your FO (or other command unit). How do you figure that to be not arty? No wonder you have so many aircraft flying all over the place.

As for "I dont find infantry much of use in PBEM battles." :rolleyes:

[Gary Tatro]

Lets see, Aircraft---Definition-big flying plane. Flys over the ground and drops ordanance (booms and rockets) and shoots bullets on poor unsuspecting troops then fly away after all there ordanance has been expended.

Artillary --- Definition-Very large mobil or immobile guns that take directions from infantry observers that direct its fire. Can shoot a number of different types of rounds and generally are located very far back behind the main lines of confrontation.

Sorry RB aircraft is not artillary. Aircraft is aircraft and artillary is artillary. :p
I am sorry that in "your book" you feel that aircraft is artillary, but if that is the way you feel, you can handicap yourself anyway you want to.

I think that if you took a poll about what PBEM's think if aircraft should be considered artillary, you would be in the minority.

Just because the game treats aircraft ploting the same way as artillary does not make it the same. I believe that SPWAW did it this way because it was easier to program then to make up a whole new program to handle aircraft.

So sorry old chap.

[rbrunsman]

I guess I'm the dummy then. Airstrikes will certainly be one of the "issues" to be clarified in my PBEMs from now on. I don't the use of them myself (offensively or on the receiving end).

[Buzzard45]

Originally posted by Gary Tatro


Sorry RB aircraft is not artillary. Aircraft is aircraft and artillary is artillary. :p
I am sorry that in "your book" you feel that aircraft is artillary, but if that is the way you feel, you can handicap yourself anyway you want to.

I think that if you took a poll about what PBEM's think if aircraft should be considered artillary, you would be in the minority.

Just because the game treats aircraft ploting the same way as artillary does not make it the same. I believe that SPWAW did it this way because it was easier to program then to make up a whole new program to handle aircraft.

So sorry old chap.

I tend to agree. Air is air, it might be air transport but it is still a third arm.

As for infantry in PBEM How could you do without it. I would rather be without tanks. In fact I find myself doing more and more of that. I play with SP guns instead. Sure the Panthers and Tigers are sexy beasts but if there is killing to do, history teaches us that the ATG did more damage than AFV.

BTW: what's your new title mean? No banners? German banners only?


Purchasing
In my books the battle is won or lost in the purchase and deploy stage. I think the question is what to buy in what time frame and nationality. What units will you not do without. Is that right, Rob?

For instance Post 1943 US forces. I never go without M15 or M16 tracked AA, They will destroy all German and Russian HTs and are hell on infantry from any distance let alone the AA ability.

I think you have the combined arms idea, Rob, but its the effectiveness of the particular units that make or break you. A pre 1943 6pdr or 2pdrs in a tank,has no HE , thus no gun that will shoot at soft targets. A Tretarcht ( I still can't spell that name) carries no AT rounds and will not fire at an armoured vehicle in OP fire. A typhoon will kill any tank but cannot penetrate a heavy pillbox. Its these things that you learn by doing.

GaryT and the lawyer are right about the mix, it depends on the terrain and your the potential forces against you. To not buy AA in a game with 6 airstrikes against you is a big mistake. To not have mine clearing engineers or vehicles in an assault is the same kind of mistake. Great thought must go into what you buy. Just because a Ferdinand looks good on paper does not make it suitable to mix it up in the woods. The same with a Churchill in what is expected to be a fast moving game. However a Churchill is just the ticket to play in the woods on a small map. Especially if it carries a flamethrower. The heavy armour can take the first hit and survive (most of the time). All my purchases have a predetermined role in the battle. I set the plan and buy the units that are needed to do the job. If you don't know what the unit can do or if you have a choice between two that look equal in their specs, test them is a hot seat game with yourself. I hated the VC Firefly until I found out what it could do. It has such a wimpy name. Or ask in the forums. The group will tell you. Watch:


What's a better tank the in the desert. Valentine or Crusader 0R 38T or PzIII? I hope somebody answers

One last note: I love watching those planes strike. Its almost as good as watching an ammo dump go up.

[VikingNo2]

I'm a Arty 10% , approx 10% in recon, 10% AT gun, 30 % infantry , 30 % armor. 10% misc


The make of the map is key and can change these numbers.


Also who you are playing, if you can figure out a players habits use them against them.

Purchasing is very important, I have had games that I knew I was going to lose by after the first turn. I use the Italiansas a measuring stick, play them against the computer, they will make you use combined arms if you are to win.


.02$

[RobW]

All, thanks for this comprehensive reply and if anyone else wishes to contribute please do. Well I am off for 2 weeks well earned vaccation from the end of the week so will check in again when I return. Will continue to offer myself as the preverbial "sacrificial lamb" to anyone wanting to beat me in PBEM - who knows I may soon get my first victory!!!!!

RobW

PS please note - I don't play PBEM to win (much) but to enjoy myself - winning once would be nice tho

[Jim1954]

RobW,

try a 1 on 1 with someone. The odds are a lot better on getting that first victory. My first(and only:( ) PBEM victory came that way. Otherwise I just feed the sharks out there.

[Gary Tatro]

Originally posted by Buzzard45
BTW: what's your new title mean? No banners? German banners only?[

This had to do with me trying to read a post with RB, Jess, Jim replying back and forth. They had so many banners that I had to scroll like a page per post. It got me very frustrated. I wrote a post about the fact and found you can turn the banners off in you user CP, and now they all jus show up as a link. Much easier to read.

[Gary Tatro]

Originally posted by rbrunsman
I guess I'm the dummy then. Airstrikes will certainly be one of the "issues" to be clarified in my PBEMs from now on. I don't the use of them myself (offensively or on the receiving end).

To tell you the truth I have never considered aircraft to be artillary. The main reason is that there is so many restrictions on aircraft and artillary. Most people do not like to play with aircraft at all. So I always considered it as a different thing. Due to that you can buy one section or two sections. It is just that it is ussually bought as a afterthought. Also many times you can not buy it at all due to visibility and weather.

It is not like I was trying to be sneaky or underhanded. I just never considered it in the 10% artilary limit before.

[Belisarius]

Interesting question. Almost all PBEMs are played without air sections, which makes me realize I've never given any thought to airstrikes counting towards the 10% arty limit.

They are plotted, yes. But I felt that the restrictions on aircraft goes towards the max. number stipulated in the setup? That is, you limit the number on aircraft in the setup, not BOTH the setup and the 10% arty limit.

I think I'll stand over here with you, Gary.

[rbrunsman]

Either way you look at it (air as arty or air as a separate class), I think it is good form to state your intentions to buy air sections. Since many people don't like them (me included!), it is quite annoying to think they are not going to be there and to then be pounded by them over and over without being able to reciprocate. (V2 and Gary are doing this to me now in two separate PBEMs)

The above goes for infiltrators too.

Another matter that would be nice to have clarified in all PBEMs is whether you intend to go crazy with strange purchases or if you will be playing a balanced force (your interpretation of balanced anyway). If one player goes "vanilla" and the other goes crazy, then the game usually ends up not very fun for the "vanilla" player. I also find that the game is often won or lost in the buy phase when you get crazy with buying.

If everyone thinks I'm nuts on these matters, then I guess I'll have to change my ideas of what makes a good game and buy accordingly or be a stickler for what I expect in a game. Thoughts?

(I hope that didn't come off as if I'm disgruntled. I just want to be on the same page with everyone else.)

[VikingNo2]

I looked up Rbrunsman in the dictionary and it does not equal disgruntle

:rolleyes:

I though we agreed on our set up for air, if not my apologies,
( you are winning the game by the way )

I think its just needs to be stated in the setup that all



Big Hug from Helga to RB, M4 send her over to RB please

[Frank W.]

Originally posted by rbrunsman
Either way you look at it (air as arty or air as a separate class), I think it is good form to state your intentions to buy air sections. Since many people don't like them (me included!), it is quite annoying to think they are not going to be there and to then be pounded by them over and over without being able to reciprocate. (V2 and Gary are doing this to me now in two separate PBEMs)

The above goes for infiltrators too.

i think most ppl. want to play fun games and not realistic ones.

if one prefers the last and plays germany in after normandy battles he should get 1 air and the US or GB player 10. the allied side should get infiltraters,too ( simulating paratroopers dropped behind german lines in normandy battles or the french "resistance" ) . also the allied side would have much more arty.... but who wants such kind of realism ?