Question: DOW on Turkey?

[jboldt007]

Wondering from experIenced players under what conditions the axis would DOW Turkey? In current GW the eastern Front has kind of settled into a "sitzkrieg" the Italian campaign against Egypt has bogged down to supply problems. Vichy is sitting in Syria doing nothing. Th axis have conquered the Balkans except Greece (staying far away Attica)! Not a good situation for axis. But soviets are massing in the Caspain Sea area which is bad news re:Persia. So Germany and Italy looking at a DOW on Turkey - but is this a good idea? The axis would net a red factory and control of the Bosporous and be able to set up a front in eastern Turkey, plus some remote resources- but have no idea what taking on Turkey means. US isn't in the war yet either which is a consideration (its late 42).

[brian brian]

I think the only power I have ever seen DOW Turkey is ... the USA, playing to win by taking objectives ahead of the Red Army.

I would not do it as the Axis in the game described; sounds like a boredom move because the Axis doesn't want to play Defense. The Russians could (completely ahistorically, but the rules are the rules) align them and then all you have done is extend the Eastern Front on a very rugged flank and given the Russians a black factory and probably easier pickings of just taking Vichy Syria for themselves, giving them one Oil from Iraq with no Partisans to garrison against. If I recall correctly. Turkey would set up everything on the Bosporous and it would be challenging to cross unless the Italians got lucky dodging the Royal Navy, temporarily.

I would not add a US Entry chit at all either, as you note, though the US should be drawing 2 per turn anyway and one way to juke them at the end is to suddenly push Entry way up higher than where the Tension level will support an American DOW, but that is trickier than it sounds to execute.

Anyway, if the Russian campaign is stuck and the USA is not in the war at the end of 42, the Axis could be in an OK position to hold on for a victory. Depends just where the eastern "Front" actually is and how much of the Russian industrial base was salvaged - it's all about the Factories. Sounds like the Russians have plenty of those if they are eyeing Middle East oil this late in the game - maybe Japan could pull a low Entry leverage DOW and send in white-print/elite peacekeepers to force a Russian struggle there for the oil, before overseas adventures become difficult for Japan, though they should be doing very well with a US a year behind. Japanese Cavalry and Air Re-Supply could mess up the Russian Far East resources and the Combined Fleet can absolutely paste Vladivostok whenever it wishes, though Russian divisions will return the favor on the remains of the Co-Prosperity Sphere in 1944 and 1945.

[brian brian]

This would also give the Allies nice airbases to attack Ploesti.....

[Centuur]

I've never DoW'ed Turkey with the Axis. It's a waste of good forces to attack them and strategically not good at all to give that country to the Allies.

The Turkish army is pretty good, considering the terrain it has to defend. And with Uncle Joe being able to send in troops and planes, that's not good at all.

Every German unit which is withdrawn from the Eastern Front, means less pressure on the Soviets. And giving the Soviets 8 Corps for free is something which should be avoided, IMHO.

No, if Germany gets bogged down in the Soviet Union during late 1942, it should consider going on defense and not overstretch themselves. Every unit the Soviets sends towards Persia will make things better for them, because it gives Germany time to prepare their defenses.

Late 1942 is often the time when you should forget about conquering the world, but start thinking how to delay the destruction of the 1000 year Reich...

[jboldt007]

Awesome comments ! Thanks. You know - it makes me realize... the answer rests in part in .... is this a 2 player game... or a 6 player game... or whatever. If the US and the Soviets are separate players then lettting the soviets run amok in the Middle East might be a concern re winning the game. And in the end it is about winning the game. And in this respect- would a DOW on Turkey by axis just be frustration From the axis for not doing better in Russia (as noted). Holding the line might just be the better option.

It might be noted that turkey sends a resource to Germany (and Persia sends one to USSR)!so such invasions are not likely considered, at least by the axis. But maybe for Germany it helps getting Iraqi oil to the fatherland.

Japan has done well in the pacific this GW game but bungled China. Manchuria is vulnerable so no distractions for the Soviets there. The USSR moved their factories early and are in a good position. The world is looking like their oyster at the moment. An incursion into the Middle East by the Soviets is probably more of a concern for its own allies than the axis in terms of winning the game- which kind of mirrors history ...

[jboldt007]

Correction: Persia sends oil to CW of course- not Russia.

[Joseignacio]

Attacking Turkey? [:-] [:)]

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Attacking Turkey? [:-] [:)]

[:D] [&o]

[Dabrion]

For the Allies, they should always go places first where they have the operational advantage and Axis has supply/reinforcement issues. Most likely Turkey won't be one of those places and can even be a Moloch tackling an army in the mountains; there is an opportunity cost. I would consider going to Finnland/Persia/Spain before that.

For the Axis, it is a tall order on par with Spain; but without the strategic value and you have one (or two) resource(s) coming your way from there already.. I would say it is more hassle late game with the Bospherus open and someone having a cheap HQ against you. Germany can align them and i would try that first Bring 4 corps into Georgia on the Turkish border!

[jboldt007]

Well ... Ignoring his advisors, and not checking das forum, Das Leader (now known as Das Bonehead) did a DOW on Turkey hoping to grab Istanbul and the Bosporus and the Dardanelles in one go....to add onion to the ointment the a Turkish PZL.p.24 biplane took out a Dora leaving and then aborted a Romanian IAR 80.

Who knew there would be so many violet and red counters popping up. Seriously - I had no idea. I guess the vestiges of the Ottoman Empire can still put in a showing. Of course one has to grab Anakara too to conquer Turkey.. and then there's the little issue of supply across a strait.... whoops.

But to be fair, in this game aligning Turkey is not going to happen for the axis. Persia was going to fall in any event to the Soviets. Yeah they extended their railheads deep into Turkey (once aligned)!but so what..... axis snagged a factory at least and maybe control into / out of Balck sea.

But what happened next was a bit odd. The western allies freaked that the Middle East is now vulnerable to Stalin's hordes and so CW reinforced Kuwait for a US DOW on Iraq to at least make it a bit more difficult for the Russians (an idea floated earlier in this thread).

[Courtenay]

ORIGINAL: jboldt007

Who knew there would be so many violet and red counters popping up. Seriously - I had no idea. I guess the vestiges of the Ottoman Empire can still put in a showing. Of course one has to grab Anakara too to conquer Turkey.. and then there's the little issue of supply across a strait.... whoops.

One can always take a look at a country's force pool before declaring war on it.

Just a thought. [:)]

[brian brian]

we shall drag a world with us,

a world

in flames

[jboldt007]

Yes das leader could have checked force pools- but he is noted for his impulsiveness. Besides - he may have done it anyway as instanbul was sure to fall and axis may have been able to grab and hold the Turkish resource. in the end, the Soviets were heading south in any event and this meant they had to reinforce western Turkey.

One interesting offshoot is that Persia and Iraq will align with Italy which suddenly gives Il Duce (if he's still around) lots of the black gold (until the allies take it) if he can somehow figure out how to get it past Suez or through Asia Minor...

[paulderynck]

You can store oil someplace you control and use it for re-org if you can trace a supply route of any distance to it.

[jboldt007]

That is a good point ....