Opinions on how to take out Gibraltar from N. Africa

[jjdenver]

Hi,

Does this seem like a realistic option to take Gib from N. Africa to align Spain? If the Axis want to try it, what builds should be made for GE & IT?

I guess do not declare Vichy since taking Morocco would be key. What else should be done (as detailed as possible) to enable this strategy?

Thanks for insight & opinions on this. At first I thought it was too much of a gamble to be a realistic option but it seems that many experienced players feel it's valid so I'm trying to understand how it's done so that I don't have to learn the hard way what NOT to do and also to assess whether it's really a worthwhile endeavor or only for the crazy gamblers among us (which is not me).

Thx

[Joseignacio]

IMO it is not very realistic. Of course it may be possible but it's difficult. The northern african lands the other side of Gibraltar are spanish so you cannot use them if you want to align spain.

Then you can only invade from Morocco or Algeria with Para,if you have been able to control some free no mountain hexes or the Country itself (or use an HQ or eng), then support it with medium-long range bombers, plus as many divs (if you are using them) you can load in TRSs plus MAR and INf un TRS/AMPH, wait for an impulse when you can isolate Gibraltar to render it OOS, use naval bombarding... and pray! If your opponnent is not a dumbass he probably can avoid some of these situations with a strong fleet in the Atlantic area or /and one or more figters (and maybe a bomber) in Gibraltar, plus he most probably will be able to give some naval support.

And he will have more than one unit if you are in Morocco. If you are playing with divs he will probaby send a div too to avoid an extreme result and lose it in a case of very bad luck. He'll try that these corps are white printed so even if disorganized and OOS are still worth 3 (x2) for mountain...

However the prize is great so even though it's very unprobable it may be worth trying.

[Centuur]

If you are able to grab French Northern Africa and Spanish Morocco (and that's a big if), it can be done.

Builds are probably the same as when you are going through Spain: you need MAR and PARA to increase your attack factors and you need NAV/FTR to get control of both the Cape St. Vincent and Western Med, together with ART and off course the Stuka's to make sure the defenders are disorganised. An offensive chit will increase your attack a lot...

But even than: it's not an easy target out of Africa because of the sea lane...

[jjdenver]

ORIGINAL: Centuur
If you are able to grab French Northern Africa and Spanish Morocco (and that's a big if), it can be done.

Builds are probably the same as when you are going through Spain: you need MAR and PARA to increase your attack factors and you need NAV/FTR to get control of both the Cape St. Vincent and Western Med, together with ART and off course the Stuka's to make sure the defenders are disorganised. An offensive chit will increase your attack a lot...

But even than: it's not an easy target out of Africa because of the sea lane...

A few questions about this.

Is it worth building para & mar divs? they seem expensive for only 1 factor. Thoughts?

I don't see any point to building ART - there is no hex adjacent to Gib if Spain is neutral right?

o-chit. Are you thinking a German O-Chit thrown on a German HQ in Morocco? That makes sense. I wonder if German O-Chit can double Italian units also - probably not?

I wasn't sure what you meant by the last sentence. I have heard that it's done fairly often - more than I thought so I'm interested in trying it but not if it's a stupid gamble, only if odds are good to achieve success.

It seems like you could set up 2-3 attacks on Gib by using GE MAR, IT MAR, GE PARA, IT PARA, IT AMPH (with GE big INF/MIL on it). This would of course require building IT AMPH. It would also require early commitment of GE troops to Algeria, probably even before France is finished to get started through the mountains into Morocco.

It seems like a typical attack when CW is OOS would be 7 points defending (if all flipped and OOS) vs 9 attacking + 9 shore bombard + 9 air = 3.5:1 (+7) 3 flipped (+5) -1 mixed major power units that's a +11 if achieved which gives shatter on a roll of 9+ so more than 50% of the time. I'm not sure GE has enough air that they can get stacked in Morocco though to isolate in CSV, flip all 3 units, provide 9 air support.

[Zecke]

there is some kind of PPoints to buy; if not send the italian fleet

is a game..the truh is that is important and not interesting that no BBs and CAs sink there.

but i guess you want to get rid of the..garrison..in this game.,,the German subs need to sail at open see no surprise deep

[Zecke]

also some German subs may help...and parachutes as they some opinions tell you above...and even pass trough...(need the picture)

[jusi]

It seems like a typical attack when CW is OOS would be 7 points defending (if all flipped and OOS) vs 9 attacking + 9 shore bombard + 9 air = 3.5:1 (+7) 3 flipped (+5) -1 mixed major power units that's a +11 if achieved which gives shatter on a roll of 9+ so more than 50% of the time. I'm not sure GE has enough air that they can get stacked in Morocco though to isolate in CSV, flip all 3 units, provide 9 air support.

Your rating is wrong because Gib is a mountain hex so the defender would have 14 points (+8 with your attack factors, not +11). Also you expect to have 3 CW units to be flipped and no allied ships at see, so "a bit of" luck in ground striking and naval combats. How many bombers should you get to have a good rates for ground striking the 3 CW units + getting 9 ground support? How many fighters too?

[Zecke]

the germans where gentelmet with some mistakes but gentelment

as jusi said a bit of lucky need it.

[brian brian]

Germany can attempt a France First strategy on the first turn to get the French to pull their INF from Algeria (not wise by the French). The Germans don't have to be totally serious about the strategy - they don't necessarily need to use their Offensive Chits in 1939 - they just need to get the Allies focused on the Flanders front. Germany should hold one chit in reserve no matter what and just grind towards Paris, no need for dramatic chit use.

Italy waits a little on the first turn and then uses it's one hole card - division invasions on the surprise impulse. Maybe take a Pearl Harbor crack at the French Fleet on the surprise impulse too; there will be a lot of combat with them in this strategy. MWiF helps this greatly by letting them set up more divisions than WiF does. They invade Algeria with several objectives - Oran being the initial focus; moving into Morocco as fast as possible; Algiers. Bring in Italian HQ and other ground units whenever things are swinging the Axis way in the permanent battle that will be taking place in the West Med.

Germany supports this Italian move with plenty of economic loans to Italy and Luftwaffe support - building another NAV3, sending the longer range Heinkel FTRs, some Me-110. Send some choice German ground units such as Mech divisions and 4 movement point INF. Drive on Morocco relentlessly; Algiers and Tunis are secondary objectives.

Germany gets active in the North Atlantic with the Kriegsmarine. The campaign in France need not be all that fast-as-possible as normal to pivot to Russia; Germany can afford some Combined Impulses, maybe spend a little on U-Boats, keep the Royal Navy busy and attritioned some. Do not risk the German PARA in Belgium.

I also like the option of repairing an SCS, then finishing the Tirpitz and the Graf Zeppelin the next turn, then finishing the 3 heavy cruisers the following turn - 5 very good ships then arrive on the same turn; early 1941 would be the target time. A Plan Z Lite. The Kriegsmarine can then move to Brittany en masse (including with the AMPH and TRS) with heavy FTR cover and the AA unit. If the UK has attacked Portugal, maybe risk some German navy to try and help it. Or consider having the Axis attack it themselves.

Build ALL Axis MAR and PARA, including divisions. Build an Italian AMPH and ATRs. Build the Condors and more Italian NAV. Build a lot of German aircraft on J/F 1941 - Stukas and FTR-2 in hopes of pulling the Focke-Wulf 190s. Maybe advance build FTR2 in 1940.

Advance build Manstein HQ, deploy him to Oran

Launch a modest Battle of Britain with some Luftwaffe. The UK will see this all coming of course, keep the pressure on them. Pressure Egypt some too with Italian infantry at least, not just Morocco. Maybe lay down a German AMPH without finishing it to pantomime a Sea Lion on the way.

Maybe have the Japanese attack Russia to help reduce what the Russians will deploy in Poland.


Finally in the summer of 1941, throw all of these toys at The Rock, impulse after impulse. Roll well. It can work.

[Zecke]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Germany can attempt a France First strategy on the first turn to get the French to pull their INF from Algeria (not wise by the French). The Germans don't have to be totally serious about the strategy - they don't necessarily need to use their Offensive Chits in 1939 - they just need to get the Allies focused on the Flanders front. Germany should hold one chit in reserve no matter what and just grind towards Paris, no need for dramatic chit use.

Italy waits a little on the first turn and then uses it's one hole card - division invasions on the surprise impulse. Maybe take a Pearl Harbor crack at the French Fleet on the surprise impulse too; there will be a lot of combat with them in this strategy. MWiF helps this greatly by letting them set up more divisions than WiF does. They invade Algeria with several objectives - Oran being the initial focus; moving into Morocco as fast as possible; Algiers. Bring in Italian HQ and other ground units whenever things are swinging the Axis way in the permanent battle that will be taking place in the West Med.

Germany supports this Italian move with plenty of economic loans to Italy and Luftwaffe support - building another NAV3, sending the longer range Heinkel FTRs, some Me-110. Send some choice German ground units such as Mech divisions and 4 movement point INF. Drive on Morocco relentlessly; Algiers and Tunis are secondary objectives.

Germany gets active in the North Atlantic with the Kriegsmarine. The campaign in France need not be all that fast-as-possible as normal to pivot to Russia; Germany can afford some Combined Impulses, maybe spend a little on U-Boats, keep the Royal Navy busy and attritioned some. Do not risk the German PARA in Belgium.

I also like the option of repairing an SCS, then finishing the Tirpitz and the Graf Zeppelin the next turn, then finishing the 3 heavy cruisers the following turn - 5 very good ships then arrive on the same turn; early 1941 would be the target time. A Plan Z Lite. The Kriegsmarine can then move to Brittany en masse (including with the AMPH and TRS) with heavy FTR cover and the AA unit. If the UK has attacked Portugal, maybe risk some German navy to try and help it. Or consider having the Axis attack it themselves.

Build ALL Axis MAR and PARA, including divisions. Build an Italian AMPH and ATRs. Build the Condors and more Italian NAV. Build a lot of German aircraft on J/F 1941 - Stukas and FTR-2 in hopes of pulling the Focke-Wulf 190s. Maybe advance build FTR2 in 1940.

Advance build Manstein HQ, deploy him to Oran

Launch a modest Battle of Britain with some Luftwaffe. The UK will see this all coming of course, keep the pressure on them. Pressure Egypt some too with Italian infantry at least, not just Morocco. Maybe lay down a German AMPH without finishing it to pantomime a Sea Lion on the way.

Maybe have the Japanese attack Russia to help reduce what the Russians will deploy in Poland.


Finally in the summer of 1941, throw all of these toys at The Rock, impulse after impulse. Roll well. It can work.

INCREIBLE.....never see a briefing-resume so quik and MARVELLOUS

BUT you foorgot one important thing for the germans (althoug they thought that they need the ITALIAN FLEET--wrong)

PLEASE---AS GERMAN DO NOT HELP THE ITALIAN,, remeber is a republic comunist

[Zecke]

an.....the japans believe it.......

[Zecke]

but they dindnt.....PH in 1940 SANK¡¡

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: jjdenver


It seems like you could set up 2-3 attacks on Gib by using GE MAR, IT MAR, GE PARA, IT PARA, IT AMPH (with GE big INF/MIL on it). This would of course require building IT AMPH. It would also require early commitment of GE troops to Algeria, probably even before France is finished to get started through the mountains into Morocco.

It seems like a typical attack when CW is OOS would be 7 points defending (if all flipped and OOS) vs 9 attacking + 9 shore bombard + 9 air = 3.5:1 (+7) 3 flipped (+5) -1 mixed major power units that's a +11 if achieved which gives shatter on a roll of 9+ so more than 50% of the time. I'm not sure GE has enough air that they can get stacked in Morocco though to isolate in CSV, flip all 3 units, provide 9 air support

You need to consider that (if Spain is neutral, you want to align it) it will be almost impossible to flip 3 units, only with one or two bombers, probably in extended flight. Remeber there are few hexes that are not mountain in a short range in Morocco and Algeria, due to the existence of Spanish Morocco...

Not to mention that it will be extremely difficult to unsupply Gib on both sides.

However, getting Gib would change the odds a lot as it has been said before. I would probably follow most of Brian's advices, because if you got very lucky, the reward is huge (for subs, closing the med and aligning spain with a nice bunch of good units and 4 resources and factories - although one of the resources you already have it if you declare Vichy).

[Dabrion]

I have seen this a couple of times as a side-show in an all-out Barbarossa.

Strategic units for the Gib attempt in late '40 or early '41 are: GE Marine+Para+Para div, both Condors, IT NAV hammer and two ATRs, extra 4ma TRS (2x AMPH in RAW8!), 4-6 5+ range bombers (Ju88, Do17, Sparviero, BR 20, etc..) and an intact German fleet to go to the CSV from Brest to operate under the Condors. Italy can build Barbarossa FTRs with the remainder of the production. Nice to have are the subs to divert the Royal Navy carriers. Condors, Paras and Bombers stage in Algeria. Portugal works the same and better if you can secure the supply (usually not, and you have to coordinate with Japan). If possible stage from Morocco, in that case you can fly the 4range StuKas from Rabat (major advantage!). Should the Allies declare war on Vichy it is worth to bring an HQ to Morocco just for that.

GE MAR+PARA+Para are 10 + ~9air + ~6shore ~= 25 factors. 25v14 ~= +3.5odds +5flips +1.5para -1coop ~= +9 attack (~54% success). Costs 13BP if you bounce. If you kill all but one unit on a bounce, you could think about a second wave if you have the assets; else you just take your toys and head for Russia.

Creating all the circumstances and having the assets in the right places needs a disciplined Italy play and a portion of luck or a weak CW player. Italy should declare early on France and land near Oran with three divs; follow up Balbo and race for Rabat with Balbo and one div, while guarding Oran and taking coastline towards Algiers with the others. If CW brings a corps to Casablanca, the race for Rabat is basically spoiled, unless you are ready to bring major reinforcements to Morocco. Turn for Algiers in that case, request a MIL and 2x 4mover INF from Germany to take it. In '40 you want to make sure Algiers is in Italian hands and set up for Greece to align Yugoslavia later. Germany sends 4mover INF and at least one divisions per Greek port for that ops. During the Greece operation you can declare on CW if they send corps to Greece (snipe the lift if possible). If CW stays passive towards Italy, use the DOW for surprise ground strikes on the Rock.

IMHO delaying Vichy is only worth it to declare on Spain.

OChits is possbile if you want to send v.Leeb instead of the Marine and requires Italy to build a phib.
GE v.Leeb+PARA+Para are 7.5x2 + ~9air + ~6shore ~= 30factors. 30v14 ~= +4.2odds +5flips +1.5para +1hq -1coop ~= +10.7 attack (~70%). Costs 13BP + 9bp for the OPoints if you bounce. I think extra effect does not justify the extra cost here (even more so in RAW7 w/o OPoints and the die roll HQ support).

General opportunity cost is that you miss a couple of points for he pact garrison and, more significantly, the Paras for B-Day! Without Paras you will loose more Blitz assets and have a harder time to crack the Dnjepr.