The Chrono Legionnaire in TOAW

[sIg3b]

One thing that always bothered me a little in TOAW is the Chrono Legionnaires.

To explain: Say you have half day turns. In your first movement you can use all your MPs to surround an opponent. You attack him and he can´t retreat and is deconstructed. Now what happens here? Your turns starts at 6pm. Your detachments, using their entire movement, will arrive in the enemy rear at 6am the next morning. Meanwhile, you attack at 6pm with units already in place. The attack lasts 2 rounds until 8.30pm. The defeated opponents retreat and their retreat is blocked by the Chrono Legionnaires *that are going to arrive at 6am the next morning*. So, thanks to their time machine, they can block a retreat over 9 hours before their actual arrival.

[Lobster]

Won't be such a problem. Read Tamas' post here: tm.asp?m=4348270

[Meyer1]

Well, that's the fault of the IGOUGO system that the TOAW peculiarities try to solve. Now with the BTS we are one step closer.

[JPJ]

BTS sure looks great. One thing I don't understand yet is how will long-distance movement be displayed during turns with BTS?

Bob Cross explained in "TOAW IV In-depth Analysis - BATTLEFIELD TIMESTAMPS" (sorry can't post URLs yet as new user here):

Under the Battlefield Timestamp system, after all combats are resolved, the player-turn will advance to the combat round of the MEDIAN length combat. In other words, if there were seven combats that lasted 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, & 6 rounds respectively then the player turn would advance only two rounds, instead of the six rounds of before.

Suppose I had set another unit to move and use all its MPs in the same turn. Where is the icon of that unit displayed after these two rounds? Still at its starting position? In the hex at 2/totalRounds of its way? Or already at its destination?

And while that unit is still underway after round two, will I be able to redirect it or give a new command wherever it is as a reaction to (unexpected) results of the first two rounds?

Sorry if I overlooked this elsewhere.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: JPJ

Suppose I had set another unit to move and use all its MPs in the same turn. Where is the icon of that unit displayed after these two rounds? Still at its starting position? In the hex at 2/totalRounds of its way? Or already at its destination?

You don't "set units to move" in TOAW. You just move them during the movement phase. You can move some, all, or none of its MPs before any combat has occurred. Of course, if you make its entire movement prior to combat then that unit will not get to exploit paths created by subsequent combat.

And while that unit is still underway after round two, will I be able to redirect it or give a new command wherever it is as a reaction to (unexpected) results of the first two rounds?

It's wherever you moved it to, with whatever MPs you left it - possibly reduced by the advance of the combat rounds in the just completed combat phase. Assuming it has MPs left, you can move it that much further - or save some for after another combat phase.

[sIg3b]

Excellent news! Missed this because it´s hidden in the Price thread. Thanks!

[Meyer1]

ORIGINAL: Tesuji

Excellent news! Missed this because it´s hidden in the Price thread. Thanks!

Also here tm.asp?m=3899655

And specially here tm.asp?m=4274372

[sIg3b]

I don´t think the specific info of Tamas was anywhere else. Battlefield Timp Stamps as such wouldn´t solve the problem I indicated at the beginning of this thread.

[Meyer1]

ORIGINAL: Tesuji

I don´t think the specific info of Tamas was anywhere else. Battlefield Timp Stamps as such wouldn´t solve the problem I indicated at the beginning of this thread.

From the "TOAW IV In-depth Analysis - BATTLEFIELD TIMESTAMPS"

Combat creation of Battlefield Time Stamps: If a combat lasts longer than one round, it creates a Battlefield Time Stamp equal to the last round that combat expended.

In addition, if a defender was prevented from retreating from a combat by non-participating enemy units then the combat’s Battlefield Time Stamp is the greater of the time stamps of the blocking units and the time stamp of the last round of the combat. So, if the combat ended on round five, but there was a blocking unit that prevented the defenders from retreating and it had a time stamp of seven, then the Battlefield Time Stamp would be set to seven (and all participating units would have their time stamps increased to seven). Note that this ends the time-machine effect of blocking units that the game had endured up to this point (This part of the feature is still under development).

That sounds almost exactly like what Tamas said:

Well, that's not exactly realistic, is it? What we have done is that if your encircling units took X time within a turn to get to a position to block retreat, then if they DO block retreat of the defending unit, then the combat will take at least X time as well. This simulates the fact that even if they are just passive participants in the combat they are participating (by virtue of blocking routes of retreat), and thus the combat that ensues cannot start before the blocking units arrive in their position to participate in the ensuing.

Let's see how this is finally implemented.

[sIg3b]

I stand corrected. [:)]

Anyway, most glad to see I was not the only one who found the Chronosoldier effect weird.

[Lobster]

There will always be time issues in an IGOUGO turn based war game. Even if you broke it down into one second increments.

[sIg3b]

I don´t see this as an IgoUgo Problem.

IgoUgo is more like this:

6am-9am: Atacker moves; no firing allowed.
9-12: Attacker attacks; no movement allowed.
Noon-6pm: Defender moves and fires; attacking soldiers stand politely by and wait for their turn while being shot at.

Maybe not plausible, but I don´t see a violation of the space-time continuum as in TOAW.

[Meyer1]

ORIGINAL: Tesuji

I don´t see this as an IgoUgo Problem.

IgoUgo is more like this:

6am-9am: Atacker moves; no firing allowed.
9-12: Attacker attacks; no movement allowed.
Noon-6pm: Defender moves and fires; attacking soldiers stand politely by and wait for their turn while being shot at.

Maybe not plausible, but I don´t see a violation of the space-time continuum as in TOAW.

well, under that system you still could move and surround the enemy without interference (which is a IGOUGO problem) and when you attack you do as if the turn just started, while under TOAW system if you move first then the attack is gonna start later in the turn. So what we have here is every unit time traveling IMO.

[sIg3b]

No, the Chronosoldier problem comes into play only if the phases are flexible rather than fixed.

With fixed phases, I imagine them literally happening in sequence, one after the other, like moves in Chess.

So IgoUgo as such only has a realism problem, not a logical problem. And logical problems just so happen to hurt my sensibilities more. [:)]

[Lobster]

Wut??? [&:]

[sIg3b]

Can you elaborate? Where specifically was I confusing? [:)]

I know there are 2 schools in litterature/gaming. Some prefer the impossible to the implausible. I am wired the other way.

Look at it like this: The implausible could be possible in very exotic circumstances. But the contradictory will never happen in this or any other universe.

[sPzAbt653]

I wonder how OKW ran their wargames, so as to avoid the impossible and the implausible.

[Meyer1]

ORIGINAL: Tesuji

No, the Chronosoldier problem comes into play only if the phases are flexible rather than fixed.

With fixed phases, I imagine them literally happening in sequence, one after the other, like moves in Chess.

So IgoUgo as such only has a realism problem, not a logical problem. And logical problems just so happen to hurt my sensibilities more. [:)]

So what are you proposing is that units can move or attack in that order and in specific moments of their turn. Now imagine in a bigger scale, say weekly turns, that means that you have to wait till Thursday to attack and only can move from Monday through Wednesday. I don`t know if that presents a realism or a logical problems, but I don´t like it.

[sIg3b]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

I wonder how OKW ran their wargames, so as to avoid the impossible and the implausible.

[:D]

[sIg3b]

ORIGINAL: Meyer1

ORIGINAL: Tesuji

No, the Chronosoldier problem comes into play only if the phases are flexible rather than fixed.

With fixed phases, I imagine them literally happening in sequence, one after the other, like moves in Chess.

So IgoUgo as such only has a realism problem, not a logical problem. And logical problems just so happen to hurt my sensibilities more. [:)]

So what are you proposing is that units can move or attack in that order and in specific moments of their turn. Now imagine in a bigger scale, say weekly turns, that means that you have to wait till Thursday to attack and only can move from Monday through Wednesday. I don`t know if that presents a realism or a logical problems, but I don´t like it.

I am not proposing that at all; I just say it grates me less.

Or, in other words, the classic TOAW solution is worse than the problem.