ORIGINAL: Telemecus
I could write pages on the best places to put airbases, and how to place them in an attack or defence posture, whether to do a zonal defence or not etc. But these things never get written about.
Wouldn't mind if you did write these pages you talk about...
Ah wonderful! To be honest I thought no one was interested! I was going to write some of it in the end of the Axis EightMP Team Game AAR on the assumption that no one was.
Crackaces made a suggestion that they would like to incorporate all advanced air tactics which are not really documented anywhere into a single document - rather like the Walloc evacuation guide or other such things, and hopefully it will be updated. I suspect that it may be better structured that way than scattered and then lost in forum posts. Does that sound like a worthwhile project?
ORIGINAL: Telemecus
I could write pages on the best places to put airbases, and how to place them in an attack or defence posture, whether to do a zonal defence or not etc. But these things never get written about.
Wouldn't mind if you did write these pages you talk about...
Ah wonderful! To be honest I thought no one was interested! I was going to write some of it in the end of the Axis EightMP Team Game AAR on the assumption that no one was.
Crackaces made a suggestion that they would like to incorporate all advanced air tactics which are not really documented anywhere into a single document - rather like the Walloc evacuation guide or other such things, and hopefully it will be updated. I suspect that it may be better structured that way than scattered and then lost in forum posts. Does that sound like a worthwhile project?
I concur, this is a wonderful endeavour & thank you in advance for your time spent on this.
ORIGINAL: Telemecus
I could write pages on the best places to put airbases, and how to place them in an attack or defence posture, whether to do a zonal defence or not etc. But these things never get written about.
Wouldn't mind if you did write these pages you talk about...
Ah wonderful! To be honest I thought no one was interested! I was going to write some of it in the end of the Axis EightMP Team Game AAR on the assumption that no one was.
Crackaces made a suggestion that they would like to incorporate all advanced air tactics which are not really documented anywhere into a single document - rather like the Walloc evacuation guide or other such things, and hopefully it will be updated. I suspect that it may be better structured that way than scattered and then lost in forum posts. Does that sound like a worthwhile project?
Ok I didn't take into account at first before my last edits the fact that disruption is "cleared" and transformed to fatigue before each new combat. But still I'd say air war really matters.
An example: ground bombings disrupt 3000 men out of 10000. In the next combat, this is effectively 10% reduction to CV. The superior airforce operates aggressively in the area, exhausting the defenders with air superiority missions. When the actual attack commences, there's a big chance that the attacker's ground support can operate almost without any interception, which leads to maybe another 1000-2000 men disrupted. That's 20-30% reduction to the CV, simply by using air superiority.
You are right, but did the air force will disrupt 3000 men out of 10000 ? I think more probable that the air force will disrupt something more closer to 300 men out of 10000. So the impact is not the same.
The air war matters. The air Force will disrupt a considerable amount of men. German level bombers attacking an unfortified soviet unit in clear terrain typically disrupt 4000 men per attack.
Soviet tac bos doing spam ground bombing kill hundreds of guns per turn.
So here is my take on the air war, am not that experienced so no doubt there are better ways to do things. Telemechus if you are going to write a guide please feel free to use any of it.
Soviet: Concentrate massed fighters in perhaps two or three critical areas about 10 hexes behind the front line. The biplanes slightly forward and some of the better fighters a few hexes further back but close enough to give air cover. All in stacks of three air bases. Level bombers just behind the furthest away fighters. Have one empty airbase for each front at the front line. Have further empty airbases in the area. Then depending on where the Axis airbases end up do a combination of the following:
Fighter sweeps to draw out the Luftwaffe fighters to maximum range.
Bomb airbases with mass fighter support if they are within range.
Night bombing of airbases.
Unsupported bombing of airbases if fighter defence is depleted.
Bomb ground units.
Concentrate where the odds are best in your favour, so if the Luftwaffe is too strong in one area then transfer aircraft to where you can do some damage and fill up the empty bases from the reserve.
If you are weak in an area then pull them back further to avoid combat.
Ground support OFF (for '41).
The biplanes and SBs are very expendable.
When you get to turn 9 start mass building more air bases. Some Fighters, lots of TACs, a few LBs (not too many) and some TRs and Recon.
Rotate all units with low morale (50- ?) to the reserve.
Axis: Should be able to get 5,500+ kills T1, using the TACs to take out everything within range and the LBs for the further away stuff. Both the TACs and LB will need to advance into captured terrain to achieve this and the LBs do some rebasing. The Romanians should get everything around Odessa leaving AGS He111s so have a go at Sevastapol.
T2 is rest time, plus downgrade some units to the old He111s, JU86s and Me109s. More can be done in a few turns when the units that will be leaving arrive.
T3 onwards. It all depends on what STAVKA does. Pick on any groups of airbases where you can deplete the fighter cover and get free bombing of their air bases. The sequence is:
Fighter sweeps to draw their fighters out to maximum range.
Bomb the fighter bases (MIGs etc. first) using good fighter cover. You want about 2:1 fighter ratio so the bombers get through. Use the JU88s first as they are most expendable and do only moderate damage. If you can exhaust their fighters them maybe the He111s can get through for some free bombing runs. Don't use the 110s. Some moves in the TACs may get into the action. Should be able to achieve kill ratios of 5:1 or better.
After air base bombing (assuming Soviet fighters have been cleared) set fighters to Night and do your ground support bombing. If the soviet air defence is still active then only bomb where there is no fighter cover - your fighters cannot afford the fatigue to do ground bombing cover..
Ground support is OFF unless there is no fighter cover.
An alternative tactic would be to have Ground support ON and engage the soviets air force during ground combat. I haven't used this approach from the Axis side so cannot comment.
Watch fatigue levels. Fighters shouldn't be doing more than about half a dozen combats a turn, perhaps less. Don't use any aircraft that start the turn with fatigue over 20.
Watch fuel levels. Don't overload your bases and keep them within 10 hexes of the railhead. Make sure the fighters have fuel at the end of the turn.
Positioning. Aside from T1 there is no point in advancing too far to get more attacks in as you are limited by fatigue. I suspect about 15-20 hexes to the target is fine. End of turn you need the fighters covering the bomber bases and Me110s as rear cover. If STAVKA is strong in an area then keep the Luftwaffe back so they will not be drawn into air combat to cover land forces at the front. You have a few spare air bases, use them to rebase fighters so you can make a strong offensive in critical areas. It generally doesn't work to rebase bombers to empty bases as they won't get enough provisioning. I generally keep the LBs on railways. Don't move air bases any more than necessary, it causes fatigue (though not as much as combat).
IMO the the Luftwaffe can attain air dominance in '41 over at least some areas of the front and provide moderate ground support. Have only played two games where both players attempted aggressive air tactics and neither of them went past '41 but my expectation would be that STAVKA would get the upper hand by early '42.
The lark, signing its chirping hymn,
Soars high above the clouds;
Meanwhile, the nightingale intones
With sweet, mellifluous sounds.
Enough of Stalin, Freedom for the Ukraine !
So here is my take on the air war, am not that experienced so no doubt there are better ways to do things. Telemechus if you are going to write a guide please feel free to use any of it.
Soviet: Concentrate massed fighters in perhaps two or three critical areas about 10 hexes behind the front line. The biplanes slightly forward and some of the better fighters a few hexes further back but close enough to give air cover. All in stacks of three air bases. Level bombers just behind the furthest away fighters. Have one empty airbase for each front at the front line. Have further empty airbases in the area. Then depending on where the Axis airbases end up do a combination of the following:
Fighter sweeps to draw out the Luftwaffe fighters to maximum range.
Bomb airbases with mass fighter support if they are within range.
Night bombing of airbases.
Unsupported bombing of airbases if fighter defence is depleted.
Bomb ground units.
Concentrate where the odds are best in your favour, so if the Luftwaffe is too strong in one area then transfer aircraft to where you can do some damage and fill up the empty bases from the reserve.
If you are weak in an area then pull them back further to avoid combat.
Ground support OFF (for '41).
The biplanes and SBs are very expendable.
When you get to turn 9 start mass building more air bases. Some Fighters, lots of TACs, a few LBs (not too many) and some TRs and Recon.
Rotate all units with low morale (50- ?) to the reserve.
Axis: Should be able to get 5,500+ kills T1, using the TACs to take out everything within range and the LBs for the further away stuff. Both the TACs and LB will need to advance into captured terrain to achieve this and the LBs do some rebasing. The Romanians should get everything around Odessa leaving AGS He111s so have a go at Sevastapol.
T2 is rest time, plus downgrade some units to the old He111s, JU86s and Me109s. More can be done in a few turns when the units that will be leaving arrive.
T3 onwards. It all depends on what STAVKA does. Pick on any groups of airbases where you can deplete the fighter cover and get free bombing of their air bases. The sequence is:
Fighter sweeps to draw their fighters out to maximum range.
Bomb the fighter bases (MIGs etc. first) using good fighter cover. You want about 2:1 fighter ratio so the bombers get through. Use the JU88s first as they are most expendable and do only moderate damage. If you can exhaust their fighters them maybe the He111s can get through for some free bombing runs. Don't use the 110s. Some moves in the TACs may get into the action. Should be able to achieve kill ratios of 5:1 or better.
After air base bombing (assuming Soviet fighters have been cleared) set fighters to Night and do your ground support bombing. If the soviet air defence is still active then only bomb where there is no fighter cover - your fighters cannot afford the fatigue to do ground bombing cover..
Ground support is OFF unless there is no fighter cover.
An alternative tactic would be to have Ground support ON and engage the soviets air force during ground combat. I haven't used this approach from the Axis side so cannot comment.
Watch fatigue levels. Fighters shouldn't be doing more than about half a dozen combats a turn, perhaps less. Don't use any aircraft that start the turn with fatigue over 20.
Watch fuel levels. Don't overload your bases and keep them within 10 hexes of the railhead. Make sure the fighters have fuel at the end of the turn.
Positioning. Aside from T1 there is no point in advancing too far to get more attacks in as you are limited by fatigue. I suspect about 15-20 hexes to the target is fine. End of turn you need the fighters covering the bomber bases and Me110s as rear cover. If STAVKA is strong in an area then keep the Luftwaffe back so they will not be drawn into air combat to cover land forces at the front. You have a few spare air bases, use them to rebase fighters so you can make a strong offensive in critical areas. It generally doesn't work to rebase bombers to empty bases as they won't get enough provisioning. I generally keep the LBs on railways. Don't move air bases any more than necessary, it causes fatigue (though not as much as combat).
IMO the the Luftwaffe can attain air dominance in '41 over at least some areas of the front and provide moderate ground support. Have only played two games where both players attempted aggressive air tactics and neither of them went past '41 but my expectation would be that STAVKA would get the upper hand by early '42.
This is a good write up. There are things I do different but we all do things different. It lays a good foundations for others to build on & I'm sure the final product will be nice when Telemecus finishes
Recycling to reserve with the free +5 morale gain (which allows for the experience to follow) is perhaps too good. And only one side is able to use it extensively.
I am not as fanatical as some but if morale drops below 30 back they go. Also if they become depleted then in reserve hopefully they will get restocked.
Molotov : This we did not deserve.
Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.
Ok I didn't take into account at first before my last edits the fact that disruption is "cleared" and transformed to fatigue before each new combat. But still I'd say air war really matters.
An example: ground bombings disrupt 3000 men out of 10000. In the next combat, this is effectively 10% reduction to CV. The superior airforce operates aggressively in the area, exhausting the defenders with air superiority missions. When the actual attack commences, there's a big chance that the attacker's ground support can operate almost without any interception, which leads to maybe another 1000-2000 men disrupted. That's 20-30% reduction to the CV, simply by using air superiority.
You are right, but did the air force will disrupt 3000 men out of 10000 ? I think more probable that the air force will disrupt something more closer to 300 men out of 10000. So the impact is not the same.
Hi, I think that Nix is here referring to my server game against PMM13 (no AAR here, only in one Finnish gaming forum) where I just took Tula in Novermber snow offensive after extensive bombing. There I indeed disrupted over 5000 men with 2 bombing runs (150 stukas per run) and it seemed to make a difference along air support during the battle.
What comes to 3000 vs 300, I have been regularly doing massive bombing runs on frontline stacks that I am planning to go through to ensure that they go down with first try. I have concentrated both AGC and AGN air assets near Moskow in autumn 1941 and was constantly getting 2500-5000 soviets disrupted PER bombing run when attacking on open (+fort) with 100+ bombers (preferably Stukas) and depending if there were 1,2 or 3 soviet divisions stacked. I felt it played important part in crushing Soviet frontline and at least it encouraged me to go forward with some attacks where odds weren't initially in my favor.
I don't fully understand how ground bombing works. The manual states "Disruption from combat is converted into fatigue before any new combat, and is also converted at the very start of the logistics phase, so units will always begin a turn with zero disruption."
Does this mean that if a unit is bombed twice then the disruption from the first bombing is converted to fatigue before the second ? If this is the case then ground bombing before an attack is not going to be that effective compared to air support in a ground attack.
Another question relates to how many troops are being bombed. I have always assumed that damage is dependent on the strike force and is mitigated by terrain/entrenchment. So bombing a brigade in clear terrain will cause the same damage as bombing 3 divisions in the same and so will be proportionally more effective. Is this correct or does the density of the target matter (as is the case under some circumstances in WITW with interdiction) ?
The lark, signing its chirping hymn,
Soars high above the clouds;
Meanwhile, the nightingale intones
With sweet, mellifluous sounds.
Enough of Stalin, Freedom for the Ukraine !
Good questions Tyronec! I have been just doing air-thingies because they feel right. I have had impression that bombing 3 units will cause more casualties than bombing 1 unit, BUT I have never done any in-depth analysis of statistics to confirm this so I might be totally off the target here.
As of side note and related to flak-discussion elsewhere here, those two massive bombing runs targeting Tula cost me 1 shot down Stuka even though there were shitloads of AA shooting during those sorties.
ORIGINAL: Kantti
What comes to 3000 vs 300, I have been regularly doing massive bombing runs on frontline stacks that I am planning to go through to ensure that they go down with first try. I have concentrated both AGC and AGN air assets near Moskow in autumn 1941 and was constantly getting 2500-5000 soviets disrupted PER bombing run when attacking on open (+fort) with 100+ bombers (preferably Stukas) and depending if there were 1,2 or 3 soviet divisions stacked. I felt it played important part in crushing Soviet frontline and at least it encouraged me to go forward with some attacks where odds weren't initially in my favor.
Do you have screen of such results ? I'am interested.
I don't have screenies from previous turns at hand but here are results from this rounds (23) ground bombing, including those two urban bombing runs discussed earlier.
https://i.imgur.com/XGiQVfg.jpg (sorry for large image, you might want to paste that link into browser and look it directly from imgur site)
I have gut feeling that bombing in snow is less effective (and my airforce is kinda worn out at this stage) and I have in last summer months achieved even a tad better results with large scale bombing of ground units. As it is snow turn and I am starting to move to winter quarters I didn't do so many attacks so that explains only 6 bombing runs.
To compare I checked some Soviet bombing runs and with 70-100 bombers they caused around 400 disrupted Germans on open ground without forts.
Thank you for the results. Impressive indeed. (Although 2500 men disrupted other a force of 30000 will be converted to 8% fatigue increase after the raid).
It is normal that weather affect the efficiency of the air force.
Also wanting to add that all the bombarded hexes had fort level 2. In the summer results were even more impressive when I caught Soviet stacks on the run. Now they had whole mud season worth of time to put their shovels into a good use.
EDIT: also that fatigue added takes some pressure away from need to make soaking attacks to increase fatigue. In Tula odds were finally 2.8:1 after my CV almost tripled and even Soviet defensive CV increased so every bit of fatigue was needed.
ORIGINAL: Stelteck
Thank you for the results. Impressive indeed. (Although 2500 men disrupted other a force of 30000 will be converted to 8% fatigue increase after the raid).
It is normal that weather affect the efficiency of the air force.
May be worth looking at your own results from bombing with almost exactly the same planes in the same quantities over Moscow in the EightMP team game you are playing now?
Remember in Kantti's game, and in Stelteck's which is almost identical although they have not noticed ( [:D] ) , you have hundreds of stukas flying unopposed for a week. In the last turn Stelteck dropped two to three thousand tonnes of munitions by tac bombers in the area. They could create that kind of damage and disruption, but that is abnormal. Normal is that stukas do have to run the gauntlet of Soviet interceptors which, even if they do not shoot down stukas, do enough at least to distract them while aiming for their targets - and results are lower.
