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Try these web site out:Originally posted by lnp4668:
Hi Bryan, enjoyed your campaign so far. I just obtained two books about Stalingrad (Enemy at the Gates and Stalingrad: The Fateful Siege: 1942-1943) Have not finished reading them, but they don't seems to have a lot of information about unit compositions of the battle. Do you knows any good sources?
) However, the elite commander with 20+ kills survive 
)Originally posted by lnp4668:
So what will be your next battle? I hope you will not be stuck in Stallingrad because operation Uranus have already began.
) , I'll wait to read her instead. , I'll wait to read her instead. Originally posted by lnp4668:
I just finished the last battle of operation Winter Storm at Myshkova river with a DV (7121/11) and the text said that we must withdrawn (historically accurate but very disapointing
I even compile an AAR, but not wishing to steal Alexandra's thunder
I was thinking it would be really cool if someone could manage to stay in Stallingrad and present it from the 6th army's POV, maybe actually lets Thunder Clap occur while another present it from the Winter Storm's POV. Too bad I overwrite my saved game.
[ June 10, 2001: Message edited by: lnp4668 ]
I have been doing a lot of reading on the battle of Stalingrad, and your frustration probably reflect a lot of German generals' frustration with Stalingrad during that time. Your decision to stick with historical force composition also probably contributed to the difficulty level of the campaign. Just think of it this way, if the best army of the third reich could not win the battle; you aren't doing too bad.Originally posted by Alexandra:
I even compile an AAR, but not wishing to steal Alexandra's thunder
Don't worry about stealing any thunder. I'm so frustrated by the first two turns of my next scen - and the campaign as a whole, that I'm shelving it for now. I may, or may not, go back to it.
Alex
So hope you will continue and just have fun no matter what the result.Would be great if you could add more to this campaign. I think that historians are still debating if Paulus have ignore Hitler and lets the 6th Army retreat, will he saved the army or be wipeout like Napoleon. So a great branching point would be if you can not obtain victory against the SO in Stallingrad, you will have to decide whether to break out early or wait for more reinforcement and gets surrounded.(sounds like a MCOriginally posted by BryanMelvin:
[QB]
Thanks and I'll see what happened to the correct text file. I will add an update to this Campaign that will include Thunderclap as well as be an overall longer Campaign. Due to posting deadline I was not able to add these. Please give me some ideas on what you would like to see? A branch that involves the drive to the Caucus Mountians and Oil Fields? Several what if branches?
QB]
) So hope you will continue and just have fun no matter what the result.[/QB][/QUOTE]I think that if Paulus have realized the extend of Uranus, he should have attempt to hold off the encirclement at Kalach instead of waiting for the circle to close. It was Hitler's order to hold on to Stalingrad at all cost that trapped the 6th army and slowly drain its strength so that by the time Little Saturn begins the 6th Army no longer have the strength to break out.Originally posted by Alexandra:
I think that historians are still debating if Paulus have ignore Hitler and lets the 6th Army retreat, will he saved the army or be wipeout like Napoleon.
Not possible. The historians who claim that are the same ones that say Rommel coulda got to the oil fields of the mid-east. In both cases they ignore logistics. After the successful Operation Saturn, and the creation of the kessel, 6th Army lacked both the strength and the fuel to break out. That was why Manstein had to get so close, before OKH would give the breakout order. It was doubtful if 6th Army could go twenty miles on it's own.Alex
Agree with you there. The German overextend themselves, and by the time Manstein took over, 6th Army is pretty much a sacrifical lamb to hold the 6 SO Armies so that Army Group A could escape from the Caucasus. I think it was the German's needs to rely on the satellite countries' troop who was not adequately prepared for armors defense that was the ultimate reason for its defeat.Originally posted by Alexandra:
A branch toward the Caucasus probably dilute the effect of following 6th army's path, but how about Manstein ignore the collapse of the Italian on his flank and push on to rescue the 6th Army?
Then it's a bigger Kessel, and a greater German disaster. A better what if might be - what if the 1st SS Panzer Corps had been given to AG South as a reserve, and had been committed to stop the initial attacks on the Rumanians.
Alex
I think you bring up good points there. 6th Army may have been able to withdraw prior to the encirclement. They also may have been too beat up from the heavy city fighting to pull it off. I don't think that question can ever be answered Well, we armchair generals have 20/20 vision of hindsight, and our arguments don't affect thousand of lives, so it is easy to second guess what they should have done :rolleyes:Originally posted by Alexandra:
Hmm, it wouldn't let me quote your first part
Alex
Yes, many of the Rumanian and Italian fought bravely, but was overun by SO tanks. And the German in the Kessel also ran from the tank when they run out of AT ammo. I just point out the German's reliant on these armies to protect their flanks while not bother to equip them.Originally posted by Alexandra:
I think it was choice rather than need. The Germans looked down on the other nations abilites to fight, but it was more often equipment and not ability that made the diff. I think SP doesn't reflect that well, but that's a side issue. If the Germans had given the Italians and Rumanians decent AT capability I think that they could have held the flanks. But, if all I had to stop KVs were 45 and 47mm ATG's, I'd run too!
Alex
