Are the games becoming too complicated/Simple?

[MrsWargamer]

Here's a thought. If we had embraced the casual disdain for anything 'beer and pretzels" then, like we do today, 'then' would likely have never happened, and there likely would be no 'today' in wargaming.

I say, just STFU with disdain for the concept of 'beer and pretzels'. Stop even using the expression. It makes you look stupid. The phrase means nothing, to begin with. So what you can't imagine drinking beer and eating pretzels with your bloated overly complicated needlessly detailed monstrosity of a design.

Beer and pretzels is not an intelligent term. It's not a useful descriptive. Every time I see the term in a review of a wargame, I tend to doubt the value of the review as a whole. It diminishes the merits of the opinion.

[Greybriar]

Please calm down. There's no need to get all out of sorts.

It was a beer and pretzels game that many feel saved the wargaming genre. The name of that game was Panzer General. To me, when someone refers to a game as being a beer and pretzels game it just means the game is a casual one that can be played without spending too much time in the planning and execution phases. I don't feel the term is detrimental at all.

As for the topic of this thread, I do feel that many games these days are too complicated. I feel that the Civilization series is; I like Civilization VI much less than I did the previous Civilization games. If I want complexity in games, I will choose a Gary Grigsby title, for example.

But I prefer beer and pretzel games. I don't have to spend weeks or months playing a single game to its end. I just want to have fun now and not have to work hard to enjoy it. I didn't use to be that way, but I've gotten older and I don't have as much time left as I did 30 years ago.

To each his / her own. If you like complicated games, go enjoy them with my blessing. If you want simpler games, go for it. We each have our own personal perspectives. Life is too short to waste. Enjoy it while you can.

[wings7]

Gaming, computer and board have never been in better shape now and for the future! [:)]

[operating]

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

Here's a thought. If we had embraced the casual disdain for anything 'beer and pretzels" then, like we do today, 'then' would likely have never happened, and there likely would be no 'today' in wargaming.

I say, just STFU with disdain for the concept of 'beer and pretzels'. Stop even using the expression. It makes you look stupid. The phrase means nothing, to begin with. So what you can't imagine drinking beer and eating pretzels with your bloated overly complicated needlessly detailed monstrosity of a design.

Beer and pretzels is not an intelligent term. It's not a useful descriptive. Every time I see the term in a review of a wargame, I tend to doubt the value of the review as a whole. It diminishes the merits of the opinion.

Ditto

[rico21]

This war is not about beer and pretzels. Bob Lee Marley.
I don't like pretzels.
I prefer a champagne and "petits fours" game!

[ezzler]

One of the things I don't like about Order of battle, is how long each scenario takes to play. These are LONG games for what is a pretty simple game.
Can be two hours or more in before realising all the choices made at the beginning were wrong and having to start over.

These days its the interface for me.
I no longer tolerate aegod style, decades old UI. And micro text.

[sIg3b]

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

Quote Matti "You should also try SPWAW or WinSPWW2"

Actually, I've been with Steel Panthers since it was created, been with Matrix Games since 2000 and have been playing the SP Camo versions for almost as long. My favourite is SP3 Brigade Combat. Always thought it felt like Panzer Leader.

Yes, SP3 is nearly great, except for 2-3 things:

1) Tanks can´t be damaged or immobilized, it´s either kill or no scratch.
2) AI is excessively stupid. My favourite is tanks are always closing in, even if they have range advantage and should by all means stay at a distance.
3) AI buys are always the same for a given random battle; no variance.

[Moltke71]

Other than profanity and obscenity, we can use any term we want.

[RodyMetal]

ORIGINAL: ezz

One of the things I don't like about Order of battle, is how long each scenario takes to play. These are LONG games for what is a pretty simple game.
Can be two hours or more in before realising all the choices made at the beginning were wrong and having to start over.

That is my problem with many games also, it doesn't matter if it simple or complex, but sometimes there are so many units to move in one turn, that became really boring to move those units one by one and it takes a lot of time, scenario design is improtant to me in wargame, also it is reason why I dont play much players scenarios/ mods, they tend to create interesting topics but swarm it with hundred of units, FOG2 and P&S as an example.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

I’m going to throw out A hypothesis that I have been thinking about for the past couple of weeks. That is is there a dichotomy of games where they are either too simplistic or way too complicated. And that we are moving to an area where boardgames went where intermediate level games were lost.

So the first part of my premise too complicated. I recently got into Command and frankly I almost have to dedicate all of my time to the game to figuring out the interface and all of the different aspects associated with it. I recently downloaded the upgrade to War in the East and when I pulled it up just try to play it for a little bit I realized I had forgotten simple things like the artillery rules let alone the Logistics and gave up! So I got the hard copy of war in the west manual and that is essentially a college textbook on Logistics. So of the Myriad of games that I have on my computer right now I’m just dedicating all of my time to command but I’m so hopelessly behind most of the other people on the board I don’t think I will ever catch up in the learning curve. Now the thing about this is why should I spend money on other games when I’ve got this one game I can spend a year trying to learn to nuances of and never understand and even if I do then I could just move onto War in the East/West and get my Masters in Logistics.

Then the other side of the coin I have panzer general on my computer and it’s just too simplistic I just can’t get into that game. I downloaded the demo of order of battle and to me it’s just another version of panzer general. I mean beer and pretzels is fun but you really don’t get the wealth of a simulation out of it.

I’m hoping TAOW IV will be that Intermediate complexity game that doesn’t bog you down in details but isn’t simplistic either (BTW I was a scenario designer for earlier versions of the game) but again not sure about shelling out the money for another computer icon.

So my question is are current trends bad for the computer war game game industry? Shrapnel and JTS haven’t come out with anything recently and it seems to be bogging down like board wargames had in the 90s. Can designers make it in this environment? Can’t the A/I. Better handle Logistics. Which, BTW is why I never bought the new version of WitP As I really don’t want to take on the training of an entire carrier wing while managing the entire war in the Pacific.

So I’m really hoping to start a thoughtful discussion here not a let’s slam The poster bash session but in any case, “you may fire when ready, Gridley!”

warspite1

I am not sure I follow this on the basis that I don't really understand how a game, and whether too complicated or too easy - or indeed intermediate, is measured. For example, are games too complicated? Well Gary Grigsby games are complicated and I have not found one I can get into. Matrix World in Flames is complicated, but it is the best, most enjoyable game I've ever played. So are games becoming too complicated? well based on that small sample, yes and no.

I don't tend to play beer and pretzels games - or at least if I do then its board games round the table at Christmas with the little warspites. But I can't remember playing a beer and pretzels war game. That assumes I understand correctly what is classed as beer and pretzels as opposed to intermediate or even complicated. For example which category do the following fit into:

Decisive Campaigns? Wars of Napoleon? Commander The Great War? Civilisation IV? Field of Glory II? Rome Total War? Strategic Command?

So if none of the above are considered beer and pretzels then I haven't played one I don't think.

How do people measure complexity? Is it measured by game/turn length, no. of units, rule book size? what is the 'general rule'?

[Crossroads]

That's a great opening post. I do however agree with Wings7 that computer and board games have never been in better shape [:)]

For boardgames, crowdsourcing has allowed for all types of game designers to gauge a popularity of their idea, and to actually go and produce the game once they have the bids in. There's a reneissaince of new games, even. It is just awesome.

Ditto for computer games, with relatively small teams being able to bring new games into market. Special nod of appreciation to Matrix Slitherine for hosting such a plethora of game design studios in their portfolio.

Tactical, Grand Tactical, Operational, there's quite a selection available each, and with varying complexities, including mid-level difficulties.

Cowed by War In the East? Try Decisive Campaigns Barbarossa instead [:)]

As for the beer and pretzels thing.

For one, I guess what you know is easy. Is Chess a beer and pretzels game? Sure, if you know the rules and some basic (even) tactics to use. It is very Tactical too, just two little battle groups facing each others on a simple little map, with just a few unit types and no supply. And, Chess has survived for centuries, and will so in future as well.

But yeah, I don't much like the beer-and-pretzels term in itself either. Simple games (like Chess) can and ofter are just awesome. As are the well-designed more complex games too, once you've found what level you like. And navigated through the first barrier of becoming familiar with gaming mechanics

Finally, as for the opening post, I guess the real issue is nowadays it is way too easy to buy too many interesting and cool wargames, and never have the proper time to play them. I speak of experience too.

Damn Steam Sales! Damn Matrix Sales! Damn the large hard drives with their terabytes of storages! [:'(]

[MrsWargamer]

"Damn Steam Sales! Damn Matrix Sales! Damn the large hard drives with their terabytes of storages!"

I hear your pain

[durangokid]

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

"Damn Steam Sales! Damn Matrix Sales! Damn the large hard drives with their terabytes of storages!"

I hear your pain

It's comforting when others feel the same way you do. War in the East - magnificent game. Well I'm sure it will be when I find the time to study the guide. Bought last Christmas in a burst of enthusiasm and a sale.

Maybe time to start a society? GA - Gamers Anonymous for people who just can't help themselves.

[Crossroads]

ORIGINAL: durangokid

Maybe time to start a society? GA - Gamers Anonymous for people who just can't help themselves.

Nah. I see no need to be cured [:'(]

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: Tesuji

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

Quote Matti "You should also try SPWAW or WinSPWW2"

Actually, I've been with Steel Panthers since it was created, been with Matrix Games since 2000 and have been playing the SP Camo versions for almost as long. My favourite is SP3 Brigade Combat. Always thought it felt like Panzer Leader.

Yes, SP3 is nearly great, except for 2-3 things:

1) Tanks can´t be damaged or immobilized, it´s either kill or no scratch.
2) AI is excessively stupid. My favourite is tanks are always closing in, even if they have range advantage and should by all means stay at a distance.
3) AI buys are always the same for a given random battle; no variance.

SP3 was my first Steel Panthers game until I discover SP2. I did like the 1-1 scale for vehicles much more.
Right now, I am very tempted to rediscover the series. Steel Tigers seems not anywhere from near.

[aaatoysandmore]

Heroes of Normandie is a beer and pretzels game. Empire is a beer and pretzels game.

Games that do not require much thought other than pressing a button to roll the die or move an fire are beer and pretzels games

Games where you have to think about the terrain and supply with still mostly die rolling and move an attack are intermediate games. These "can" have abstract supply and diplomacy etc. but, not in the complicated nature of an Advanced game nor any at all for that matter.

Games like War in Flames where you have to decide how many toilets you are going to install for your troops and if you have enough coal and food and fuel an ammunition and toilet paper and track and diplomacy, spying, detailed research,air warfare and logistics an above all military equipment are your more advanced games. Games with a lot of break up and break down of units in armies, corps and divisions all the way down to squads[:'(]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

Games like War in Flames where you have to decide how many toilets you are going to install for your troops and if you have enough coal and food and fuel an ammunition and toilet paper and track and diplomacy, spying, detailed research,air warfare and logistics an above all military equipment are your more advanced games. Games with a lot of break up and break down of units in armies, corps and divisions all the way down to squads[:'(]

warspite1

I think you are perhaps confusing World In Flames with one of the GG monsters. World In Flames in complex but is not complex in a logistics sense.

[wings7]

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

Heroes of Normandie is a beer and pretzels game. Empire is a beer and pretzels game.

Games that do not require much thought other than pressing a button to roll the die or move an fire are beer and pretzels games

Games where you have to think about the terrain and supply with still mostly die rolling and move an attack are intermediate games. These "can" have abstract supply and diplomacy etc. but, not in the complicated nature of an Advanced game nor any at all for that matter.

Games like War in Flames where you have to decide how many toilets you are going to install for your troops and if you have enough coal and food and fuel an ammunition and toilet paper and track and diplomacy, spying, detailed research,air warfare and logistics an above all military equipment are your more advanced games. Games with a lot of break up and break down of units in armies, corps and divisions all the way down to squads[:'(]

[8|][>:]

[rico21]

So, if I have well understand,
We have Champagne and petits fours game,
The Beer and pretzels game,
And the little last,
The Toilet paper game.

[durangokid]

ORIGINAL: rico21

So, if I have well understand,
We have Champagne and petits fours game,
The Beer and pretzels game,
And the little last,
The Toilet paper game.

[:D]