Unit recovery from disablements

[JoV]

Hi guys

I'm sure this has been dealt with ad nauseum, but I am still really confused as the mechanics of unit recovery in this game (i.e. disablements) [:)]

In my current game, and previous ones, I've found the Japanese 65th Brigade is very 'squishy', in that it tends to take a lot of disablements in combat. It also seems to recover exceedingly slowly. Example from my current game is below. On the blue line it was part of a direct attack (which went very badly [:D]) The leader is leadership 48 Inspiration 53 Land 59 Admin 69 (I changed their starting commander for a slightly better one just after the attack).



There is a lot of supply in the hex and a HQ (the 14th). By comparison, another division involved in the attack has rebounded quickly.



Just wondering what factor, or combination of factors, is influencing the marked difference in unit recovery? Should I just replace the leader with an infinitely better one, or is the units low experience also a factor? Any suggestions appreciated [:D]

[BBfanboy]

How much other support is available in hex?
Are their other units ahead of it on the list (by database index number) that are soaking up the support?

[Lokasenna]

I think unit size is a factor, although

I think disruption, fatigue, and morale probably also play into it. I don't have a citation on that, I just think that they do. In your screenshots, the division has less damage to those than the brigade. The division also has more experience. I wonder if that helps - it helps with a lot of other (combat) stuff.

It's also worth noting that the division has far more built-in support units compared to the brigade. If there is any kind of support shortage in the hex, the brigade would feel it more keenly than the division.

Lastly, a tip - you should divide your division into 1/3's for fastest recovery from disablements and fastest replacements (each 1/3 will take replacements at the same rate, making for 3x the rate).

[Aurorus]

Support is important to recovery. The unit should have more support than necessary for each device: i.e. a green support number. High morale, low fatigue, and no disruption are also important. So, stacked in the same hex as an HQ or base force is important. Being in a base also helps: the larger the base the better. Also, it seems to me that the recovering devices check is similar and uses the same mechanics as the receive replacements check. Therefore, you want to be in a large base with 20k+ supplies. If you can trace a good supply path (major roads and railines) to other bases with 20K, this will also improve recovery time, in my experience. Finally, tests by various players have shown that unit commander administration has no effect on recovery of disabled squads. However, I firmly believe that the administration rating of a local army HQ commander will improve recovery rates for disabled squads.

Hope all of the helps. The 65th brigade will recover squads at the same rate as any other unit under the same conditions. It is a "squishy" in the sense that it a light brigade without any heavy support. This also makes it a good amphibious assault unit, for assaults on larger enemy positions, once the amphibious bonus expires. It is also entirely air-mobile. It is one of the most versatile units in the Japanese early-war arsenal and a very important LCU. It should see a lot of action in 1942, so you want to keep it in good shape and place it in positions where it can recover its devices quickly.

[JoV]

There is a lot of support in the hex, so I suspect it might be because of the internal support within the formation. Never imagined it had anything to do with the database index number though [:D]

It only increased in another 1 AV last turn, whilst the division alongside it jumped 8 points, so have accepted the only feasible option is to move it out of the hex, let it rest till it recovers and move it back in. In a previous game I nearly shattered the unit through repeated attacks, and want to avoid it here since, as you say, it has a lot of late war uses.

Fwiw, I feel that splitting units to accelerate recovery is a little gamey, but each to their own. Wouldn't complain if my opponent did it anyway.

I checked the database number, and is indeed higher than the other formations present.

Many thanks for the replies [:)]

[Barb]

I think the primary culprit here is the Experience of the unit? It takes more time for a medicore unit to get replacements working effectively than for an elite unit to recover the effectiveness even if the replacements are about the same in skill.

[BBfanboy]

Just a week or two ago in another thread Alfred said unit Experience does not affect recovery time.

I had been trying to make the point that experienced units seem to be less affected by malaria so they have fewer squads to recover in the first place, and fewer squads falling ill why others are recovering - which would look like faster recovery.

[spence]

I had been trying to make the point that experienced units seem to be less affected by malaria so they have fewer squads to recover in the first place, and fewer squads falling ill why others are recovering - which would look like faster recovery.

Amazing how mosquitos always seek out the unenthusiastic draftees

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: spence

I had been trying to make the point that experienced units seem to be less affected by malaria so they have fewer squads to recover in the first place, and fewer squads falling ill why others are recovering - which would look like faster recovery.

Amazing how mosquitos always seek out the unenthusiastic draftees

Newbies are sloppy about things like repellant and mosquito nets. When I was in Egypt we had to cajole the newcomers to take their quinine tablets every day.

[Lowpe]

Compare the TOE of the two units.

I am betting the division has twice as many subunits in their TOE each with a chance to repair daily assuming a normal distribution of disablements.

Aurorus has done excellent work here -- search the forum for his posts on the subject.

[Alfred]

Post screenshots of the two units.  Those screenshots are much more informative than a tracker screenshot.
 
Alfred

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Compare the TOE of the two units.

I am betting the division has twice as many subunits in their TOE each with a chance to repair daily assuming a normal distribution of disablements.

Aurorus has done excellent work here -- search the forum for his posts on the subject.

From memory, the 65th Brigade is almost entirely infantry, a matching number (I think) of support squads, and some light artillery/AA. No engineers, no tanks, no combat engineers.

The division is made up of more "subunits" of things.

[JoV]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Post screenshots of the two units.  Those screenshots are much more informative than a tracker screenshot.

Alfred

This is the 65th Bde. It's just reached Clark Field and will be set into rest mode



And the 48th ID, which has been in bombardment mode for about a week now.

[BBfanboy]

Only thing that I notice is that the prep for Manila is much lower on the 65th than on the 48th. That would explain the tendency to suffer more in combat, but I don't know if it has anything to do with recovery while they were in Manila hex. I presume the enemy owns Manila and you own Clark?

[JoV]

Yep. My opponent chose to defend Manila over Bataan. Which is curious. I've not seen that happen before [:)]

[Lowpe]

The division has twice the number of devices that the brigade has...that is the lion's share of your answer. The division is 75% av of strength compared (from 42) to the brigades 67% (from 53).

[JoV]

Yes, I thought it might strongly relate to that.

They are currently resting at Clark, receiving foot rubs and sponge baths. Will watch their recovery closely, although their AV has not increased a jot in two days now [>:]

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: JoV

Yes, I thought it might strongly relate to that.

They are currently resting at Clark, receiving foot rubs and sponge baths. Will watch their recovery closely, although their AV has not increased a jot in two days now [>:]

Some troops seem to have a "maintenance rating" of 4 ...

[Alfred]

One needs to be very cautious in accepting advice regarding recovery of disabled devices in specific circumstances as this is an area very much under the hood with minimal dev commentary.  It is complicated by the fact that disabled devices result from different conditions precedent and it is sometimes necessary for the condition precedent to be resolved first before work can proceed to recover the disabled device itself.

1.  No dev has ever mentioned that unit experience or unit size is a factor in disabled devices recovering.

Edit: Have found a key dev (BigJ62) comment which corrects the experience factor. The following quote is dated 22 April 2010

1. friendly base with greater than 2x supply helps and having excess support at that base plus any corps HQ in range with a leader with high admin helps.
2. unit with 1x+ supply helps
3. rest mode really helps
4. unit with high exp helps
5. no enemy in hex helps
6. temperate hex really helps
None of these are manditory but they help.

Through it all though thare are lots of randoms that determine whether or not you can repair any devices and when I stepped into the code to watch a HQ try to repair its disabled squads I'll be damned if it didn't fail one of the randoms blowing any chance of repair and this was a unit that had really good chance at it for that turn so, it is not guaranteed.



2.  LCU devices will be disabled in the following circumstances

• when initially received as a replacement device
• as a result of the LCU having too high a fatigue level
• as a result of any combat
• lack of supply
• insufficient support squads

3.  Both fatigue and disruption are conditions precedent in that whilst both generate their own separate (independent of the disabled device status) input into the combat algorithms, their recovery has higher priority than disabled device recovery.  Fatigue automatically increases from any activity other than sitting still.  The climate and weather zone has varying impact on the gain and removal of fatigue.  Whether located inside or outside of a base, together with the size of the base, are also factors taken into account in determining the fatigue level of a LCU.  Being on board a ship also increases fatigue.  Fatigue reduction is also very dependent on the LCU itself having both adequate supply and support squads.  Being in rest mode also assists.  Disruption results from combat and an opposed river crossing.

What this means is that some of the factors which only reduce the conditions precedent fatigue and disruption, are only indirectly involved in disabled device recovery.  This complicates the issue.

4.  The two most relevant leader attributes for recovering disabled devices are admin and inspiration.  Admin is indirect and applied differently by the type of unit to reduce fatigue and disruption; the HQ leader utilising the support squads whereas the actual unit leader utilising the organic unit supply.  Inspiration is used by the unit leader for devices disabled due to fatigue.

5.  It is important to realise that support squads are only shared when located at a friendly base.


The screenshots show a marked difference in the inspiration rating of the two direct leaders.  That together with die rolls is a significant factor in the two results.

Although both units are set to receiving replacements, the OP indicated that the 65th suffered in combat.  That strongly suggests that it has received more replacements than the 48th and consequently has all those disabled replacement devices to be fed into the recovery algorithms.

Alfred

[Lokasenna]

Unless they are repaired at the same time as they are received from replacements, my experience with replacement devices is that they arrive repaired - not disabled.