Vichy or No Vichy

[Harrybanana]

Someone else already posted this in another thread, but I think it deserves one of its own. As KorutZelva and others have pointed out there are a significant number of disadvantages and very few advantages to the Axis not creating Vichy France. Does everyone agree, or am I missing something?

[DeriKuk]

I agree.

One "mistake" I made was to have the Germans conquer continental France, and having the Italians going after the colonial French territories, notably Tunisia and Algeria. It works, but GREAT CARE must be taken to NOT have an Italian enter the new "French" capital of Algiers. That has to be done by a German unit ... else the entire France will become Italian (without a single Italian unit having entered continental France) - as weird as that may be in anything approaching historical possibilities. The result of this "mistake" is that Germany will be starved of MPPs with which to conduct operations like Barbarossa, and the Italians will soon run out of things to build.

I had title the subject "Rich Italy; Starving Germany" or something like that. It failed to garner any real discussion or consideration, and it appears that there is not much interest in applying the fixes I had suggested. ... moving on to other things.

[crispy131313]

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

Someone else already posted this in another thread, but I think it deserves one of its own. As KorutZelva and others have pointed out there are a significant number of disadvantages and very few advantages to the Axis not creating Vichy France. Does everyone agree, or am I missing something?

This seems right to me. Spanish war entry is a huge advantage to the All of France strategy though is it not?

[crispy131313]

ORIGINAL: DeriKuk

I agree.

One "mistake" I made was to have the Germans conquer continental France, and having the Italians going after the colonial French territories, notably Tunisia and Algeria. It works, but GREAT CARE must be taken to NOT have an Italian enter the new "French" capital of Algiers. That has to be done by a German unit ... else the entire France will become Italian (without a single Italian unit having entered continental France) - as weird as that may be in anything approaching historical possibilities. The result of this "mistake" is that Germany will be starved of MPPs with which to conduct operations like Barbarossa, and the Italians will soon run out of things to build.

I had title the subject "Rich Italy; Starving Germany" or something like that. It failed to garner any real discussion or consideration, and it appears that there is not much interest in applying the fixes I had suggested. ... moving on to other things.

I remember the thread, but if memory serves correct it involved mechanisms that may exist in another game?

[KorutZelva]

You can still get the decision via conquering Vichy Algeria IIRC. Which is probably easier.

On top of that, in both cases it doesn't guarantee Spain instantly because the UK can easily garrison Casablanca before Algiers falls.

The main draw, as it is now, is the two free battleships from avoiding mers el kebir. You can still avoid mers el kebir with Vichy by declaring war on Vichy algeria before it happens but about half the time it happens right after france falls before the Axis have their turn. So technically the only real advantage right now to go full france is preventing the french ship to be sunk.

[Harrybanana]

If I understand it correctly the main differences between accepting Vichy and not are:

1. If you accept Vichy the Axis gain an immediate award of conquest MPPs; but if you don't you don't get the MPPs until you capture Algiers. If so, do you get a larger award of MPPS then if you had accepted Vichy?

2. If you accept Vichy you will collect MPPS each turn thereafter but for only Non-Vichy France. Whereas if you don't accept Vichy and go on to conquer Mainland France, Tunisia and Algieria you will gain more MPPs per turn.

3. If you accept Vichy it will then be easier to DOW and then conquer Tunisia and Algeria. The only negative being increased US mobilization.

Have I missed anything?

In two of my recent games I have intercepted an Italian transport apparently on its way to Algiers before Paris is captured. Not quite sure what its game plan was. I had not vacated Algiers and capturing it with a single corps seems rather unlikely. Can anyone tell me what the ploy is here?

[Taxman66]

regarding #3 There is no US mobilization bonus.

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

regarding #3 There is no US mobilization bonus.

Really!! So the Axis can sign a peace treaty with France guaranteeing Vichy sovereignty and then a few turns later DOW Algeria without the US getting the least bit upset.

[Zecke]

ORIGINAL: DeriKuk

I agree.

One "mistake" I made was to have the Germans conquer continental France, and having the Italians going after the colonial French territories, notably Tunisia and Algeria. It works, but GREAT CARE must be taken to NOT have an Italian enter the new "French" capital of Algiers. That has to be done by a German unit ... else the entire France will become Italian (without a single Italian unit having entered continental France) - as weird as that may be in anything approaching historical possibilities. The result of this "mistake" is that Germany will be starved of MPPs with which to conduct operations like Barbarossa, and the Italians will soon run out of things to build.

I had title the subject "Rich Italy; Starving Germany" or something like that. It failed to garner any real discussion or consideration, and it appears that there is not much interest in applying the fixes I had suggested. ... moving on to other things.

Not bad..

What i do with Italy is accumulate as much posible Mpps; and spend only in armored división to take part in Barbarrosa and also build as much as i can battleships earlier..thats all; and of course VICHY YES to run quikly to the russian border

[sPzAbt653]

What happens if you take VICHY YES and there are Axis units already in Algeria and Tunisia, and maybe even Syria ?

[Zecke]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

What happens if you take VICHY YES and there are Axis units already in Algeria and Tunisia, and maybe even Syria ?

not sure¡...because i dont play a long time ago; but i light remember that a) they dissapear b) they withdraw to your territorys

BUT i dont remenber this problem....what the problem suppose to you i mean you can not take vichy yes?

[Zecke]

What i do (if my memory dont make me wrong) is

VICHY YES

THEN RUSSIA

THEN DECLARE WAR ON VICHY and take it; if possible

[KorutZelva]

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

regarding #3 There is no US mobilization bonus.

There's a couple of % in the USSR one though.

[KorutZelva]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

What happens if you take VICHY YES and there are Axis units already in Algeria and Tunisia, and maybe even Syria ?

They are just booted to the closest Axis land.

[Taxman66]

ORIGINAL: KorutZelva

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

regarding #3 There is no US mobilization bonus.

There's a couple of % in the USSR one though.

I never saw a message alluding to that.
If the USSR mobilization went up I didn't notice it.

[KorutZelva]

There's a tiny USSR bump from each Axis declaration of war to minors. There's no pop-up for those. Yugo and other countries of interests have a bigger bump (10% or over). They might or might not have an accompanying pop-up (Ex: Lithuania has one, Latvia and Estonia don't).

[OxfordGuy3]

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

regarding #3 There is no US mobilization bonus.

Though IIRC there is if the Axis declare war on mainland Vichy?

I'm used to another WW2 grand strategy game, where if the Axis declared war on any of the non-mainland Vichy states, then all joined the allies at once, which certainly makes the Axis think twice before doing this... It allowed the allies to declare war on Syria alone without activating the other Vichy states, though.

BTW does anyone (as the Allies) bother invading Vichy Syria, as actually happened in WW2? AFAIK there are no DEs relating to this and not much incentive to do so.

[Harrybanana]

I would appreciate it if the Developers could weigh in on this with answers to the following questions:

1.Are there increases to US and/or USSR mobilization if the Axis DOW Vichy, Algeria, Tunisia or Syria?
2.Are there increases to US and/or USSR mobilization if the Axis DOW Yugoslavia (obviously prior to the UK saying YES to DE104).

[nnason]

I can say with certainty that USA will join (sept in my case) if attack Vichy, Tunis and Syria.

[Taxman66]

There is little reason to attack Vichy propper until after the USA is in.