German manpower production

[Stelteck]

Hi.
I have difficulties to evaluate the german manpower production.

There is the % allowed to east front. (Like 70% in 1943).

The manual say that production in combat report take into account this %.

So i opened various campaign scenario starting in 1941, 1942 and 1943 and checked the manpower production reported in the CR.

But it looks like that everytime the production is around 32/33K each turn. The % allowed to east front do not look to change anything.

There is also HIWI production (around 3K) and i do not know if HIWI production is affected by % allowed to east front. (For historical point of view HIWI were often used west or in germany as factory workers but ingame i do not know).

Anyone can help me evaluate how many german i have to invite in my leisure camps in siberia [:'(]

[Denniss]

event log, production section, shows manpower production for all axis nations, not separated by country
AFAIR Hiwi production should be affected by soviet manpowr multiplier and german east %

[Stelteck]

So if in the CR the manpower production is around 32K, with a multiplier of 70%, it means that the german army will receive in the east 22K fresh recruits, (not taking into account returning casualties and transfert).

[morvael]

Production shows full production, including items going West. Even log should show how many is available to the East Front (one total for all ground elements, one for all aircraft, one each for manpower and other resources).

[Stelteck]

ORIGINAL: morvael

Production shows full production, including items going West. Even log should show how many is available to the East Front (one total for all ground elements, one for all aircraft, one each for manpower and other resources).

Ho, so i'am wrong.

But in this case scenario campaign 1941-1945, scenario campaign 1942-1945, scenario campaign 1943-1945 have the same german manpower production according to CR despite different % allowed to eastern front it is a little strange.

I'am still completely confused of how many german i have to invite in Siberia each turn in 1943.

[Denniss]

GC41 T2 Axis, event log:

30481 MANPOWER recruited in 3749 manpower centers (0 were local, 20286 available)

[morvael]

PRODUCTION

Scenario production usage: German 100%, Axis Allies 100%, Soviet 100%
German production sent to East Front: 70% / Air 53%
Italian production sent to East Front: 30%

232000 tons of RESOURCES produced in 232 resource centers

30800 tons of OIL produced in 100 oil centers

22560 tons of FUEL produced in 98 fuel refineries (20400 available)
28200 tons of OIL consumed by FUEL production

15436 tons of SYNTHETIC FUEL produced in 46 synthetic fuel centers (10881 available)
30872 tons of RESOURCES consumed by SYNTHETIC FUEL production

170200 tons of SUPPLIES produced in 182 heavy industry centers (170200 available)
170200 tons of RESOURCES consumed by SUPPLY production

64250 ARMAMENTS produced in 147 armaments factories (100% production level, 44301 available)
12850 tons of SUPPLIES consumed by ARMAMENTS production

4556 VEHICLES produced in 330 vehicle factories (100% production level, 3166 available)
22780 tons of SUPPLIES consumed by VEHICLE production

312 AIRCRAFT produced in 312 aircraft factories (100% production level, 147 available)
12436 tons of SUPPLIES consumed by AIRCRAFT production

267 GROUND ELEMENTS produced in 267 ground element factories (100% production level, 191 available)
5233 tons of SUPPLIES consumed by GROUND ELEMENT production

28200 tons of OIL consumed by ALL production
201072 tons of RESOURCES consumed by ALL production
53299 tons of SUPPLIES consumed by ALL production

34434 MANPOWER recruited in 3826 manpower centers (0 were local, 24335 available)
0 MANPOWER recruited locally in 0 isolated manpower centers

__________________________________________
HIWI

2649 Hiwis recruited in 1273 manpower centers
418 Hiwis recruited from the pool of captured men

Numbers in bold is what you have available for East Front.

Since production of resources must cover all production (West+East) it didn't make sense to have some BUILT numbers show entire production and some only limited production for the East Front.

edit: in case of Hiwis first number is affected by East Front multiplier, but you see only the final value ("available"); second number is not affected by East Front multiplier, so you get all Hiwis from that source.

[Stelteck]

Ok thanks you it make sense now !!!

[morvael]

Updated with Hiwi information.

[RoflCopter4]

I did the math on the actual German manpower production for each year a while back, by counting up all of the German, Polish, and Czech manpower centers and just multiplying them by the manpower modifier and the percentage to the eastern front (in addition to the 10% modifier on Polish and Czech troops). For some reason I decided to write the little script I used in Mathematica, but anyway here it is:

Code: Select all

manpower[yearin_, germantotal_: 1630] := Module[
 {   year = yearin,
     german = {germantotal, 0, 0},
     czech = {143, 0, 0},
     poland = {434, 0, 0},
     mult = {7, 8, 9, 6, 7},
     usage = {0.75, 0.8, 0.7, 0.6, 0.65},
     total = 0
 },
     Which[year == 41, yearint = 1,
         year == 42, yearint = 2,
         year == 43, yearint = 3,
         year == 44, yearint = 4,
         year == 45, yearint = 5,
         True, yearint = 1
     ];
     german[[2]] = (german[[1]]*mult[[yearint]]);
     czech[[2]] = (czech[[1]]*mult[[yearint]]);
     poland[[2]] = (poland[[1]]*mult[[yearint]]);
       
     german[[3]] = (german[[2]]*usage[[yearint]]);
     czech[[3]] = (czech[[2]]*(usage[[yearint]]*0.1));
     poland[[3]] = (poland[[2]]*(usage[[yearint]]*0.1));
       
     total = german[[3]] + czech[[3]] + poland[[3]]
 ]

Anyway, assuming the size of German manpower centers and the multipliers haven't changed since I wrote that, the results are:

Code: Select all

Year	German Manpower
 41	8,860.43
 42	10,801.3
 43	10,632.5
 44	6,075.72
 45	7,679.04

Pretty pathetic, huh?

[Stelteck]

Thanks a lot for the info.

It looks really low while we see the german army numbers growing during 1942 and 1943 in most game. But probably the grow of german army is more a consequence of new units coming out of the blue instead of replacements.

[morvael]

I can provide current multipliers from the code if you wish.

Yes, we have to remember that reinforcements are "free" manpower, from the "western" allowance. On the other hand withdrawals are extra manpower lost.

Indeed, armies may grow because (maybe) losses in combat are too low. One day I need to run some comparisons of WitE vs Dupuy loss model for the same combat setups. But that requires writing an app to do it, and mine is in pretty early stages.

[Stelteck]

ORIGINAL: morvael
On the other hand withdrawals are extra manpower lost.

I wonder for the "withdrawals" if it is possible, and a common tactic for german players, to set the TOE of units "soon to be withdraw" to 20% in order to minimize the manpower cut.

[morvael]

No, because their withdrawal will be delayed until they will refit to 75% or 80% (don't remember exact number). They are placed frozen and are treated as being on refit on western map border.

[Stelteck]

ORIGINAL: morvael

No, because their withdrawal will be delayed until they will refit to 75% or 80% (don't remember exact number). They are placed frozen and are treated as being on refit on western map border.

Thanks for the explanation.

[MrBlizzard]

ORIGINAL: RoflCopter4

I did the math on the actual German manpower production for each year a while back, by counting up all of the German, Polish, and Czech manpower centers and just multiplying them by the manpower modifier and the percentage to the eastern front (in addition to the 10% modifier on Polish and Czech troops). For some reason I decided to write the little script I used in Mathematica, but anyway here it is:

Code: Select all

manpower[yearin_, germantotal_: 1630] := Module[
 {   year = yearin,
     german = {germantotal, 0, 0},
     czech = {143, 0, 0},
     poland = {434, 0, 0},
     mult = {7, 8, 9, 6, 7},
     usage = {0.75, 0.8, 0.7, 0.6, 0.65},
     total = 0
 },
     Which[year == 41, yearint = 1,
         year == 42, yearint = 2,
         year == 43, yearint = 3,
         year == 44, yearint = 4,
         year == 45, yearint = 5,
         True, yearint = 1
     ];
     german[[2]] = (german[[1]]*mult[[yearint]]);
     czech[[2]] = (czech[[1]]*mult[[yearint]]);
     poland[[2]] = (poland[[1]]*mult[[yearint]]);
       
     german[[3]] = (german[[2]]*usage[[yearint]]);
     czech[[3]] = (czech[[2]]*(usage[[yearint]]*0.1));
     poland[[3]] = (poland[[2]]*(usage[[yearint]]*0.1));
       
     total = german[[3]] + czech[[3]] + poland[[3]]
 ]

Anyway, assuming the size of German manpower centers and the multipliers haven't changed since I wrote that, the results are:

Code: Select all

Year	German Manpower
 41	8,860.43
 42	10,801.3
 43	10,632.5
 44	6,075.72
 45	7,679.04

Pretty pathetic, huh?

Nice calculations! So it seems that Huston we have a problem!![:)]
Multipliers have changed since your calculations, but not so much, now should be:
1941 :9
1941 :8
1943 :8
1944 :6
1945 :7


So there could be something wrong somewhere (in game? In your calculations? In my head? [:D] ):
We can see from logistic report that axis manpower available per turn is more than 20k in 1942.
If only 10k is for Germany (from your calculations) it means than more than 10k is available for other axis powers (Hungary, Romania, Italy, Finland and Slovakia)!!! But these were small countries ( except Italy that anyway contributes only for 10% to eastern front).
Another clue is the disabled manpower returning available each turn: other Axis countries all together weight only 25% of Germany!
So recapping, it seems impossible that every turn Axis has more than 20k new manpower when only 10k is produced by Germany [&:]

[morvael]

Axis allies (except Italy) are not subject to eastern front multipliers, so they have full manpower available. It can be seen in the game that Hungarian manpower grows during the early game when they have little units on the front. By 1943 they probably have 100k+ in the pool.
Also, Germany get HiWi manpower.

[MrBlizzard]

ORIGINAL: morvael

Axis allies (except Italy) are not subject to eastern front multipliers, so they have full manpower available. It can be seen in the game that Hungarian manpower grows during the early game when they have little units on the front. By 1943 they probably have 100k+ in the pool.
Also, Germany get HiWi manpower.

I don't have the game here so I use an approximation, population instead of manpower centers
Population contribution to manpower:
Germany 90 Mln * 75% = 67,5 mln
Romania 20 mln
Finland 3,7 mln
Ungary 9,2 Mln
Slovakia 2,6 mln
Italy 44 * 10% = 4,4 mln

So Germany 67,5 vs other Axis 39,9 This should be the proportion more or less
If in one turn you get more than 20k manpower available and only 10k goes to Germany it seems there is something strange, or not? [:)]
PS Germany should get 40% manpower more than other Axis countries, not less then them

[morvael]

Data from the game, June 22nd 1941, Manpower "factories"
Germany 1630
Finland 74
Italy 906
Rumania 272
Hungary 238
Slovakia 52
Czech 143
Poland 434 (German occupied part)

[morvael]

altered by East Front and occupation modifiers we get:
Germany 1222 + 10 (Czech) + 32 (Poland) = 1264
Finland 74
Italy 90
Rumania 272
Hungary 238
Slovakia 52

Germany should get roughly 63% of recruited manpower per turn (1264/(1264+726))