Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

[ny59giants]

Japan does get the Liz and Rita 4e bombers. I have 3 x 36 Betty/Nell groups converted over to the Liz. I'm building 15 Liz/month.

The Allies get significant increase in Recon planes across the board. Nice to have them on CVs, too.

[Mike Solli]

That's a LOT of HI. 144 per plane. Is the Japanese economy changed at all?

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

To have players who have NOT downloaded or are playing BTS or BTS Lite mod, the Allies have dedicated training groups - three USA Army, two Marine, three USN, and one Brit group that are just doing this. So, these mods are not a JFB dream set up. Many of the issues from RA which show up in Canoerebel vs John 3rd AARs, have been corrected. IMO, the current versions should be balanced, but possibly more bloody. [:)]

Ahh, but this is assuming those FF groups are used for training. Why not equalise using the prototypes for the Allies sometimes instead of always using the prototypes and very low number production models of Japanese planes?

Also, those groups cannot match the 500 planes you're using just from the FF you have there, right? So how does that make up for the ability to both use FF on any ship carrying seaplanes and to also train using resized FP/FF groups? The 9 training groups for the allies total 500+ pilots?

I play Japan, and I know there are a lot of cool and fun ideas they came up with, most of which either didn't work well in practice or weren't produced in the numbers we can in game.

If we want a fantasy game, it should be just as fantastic for both sides. That would be more fun.

I've looked at the OOB and get what you're saying but the Allied CVLs and training groups and airframe purchase pools and all of that just doesn't float my boat. It's chrome really compared to what the Japanese do have in these scenarios.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

That's a LOT of HI. 144 per plane. Is the Japanese economy changed at all?

It is!!

[ny59giants]

Actually Japan’s economy is under the gun to capture SRA quickly. They do have more “toys” to play with, but they cannot produce them all. Options and more options. John’s vision was to make Japan more capable longer, but not overwhelming. That’s why I’m playing this version and there are two new sets of AARs playing the newest versions.

[Kitakami]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants
Actually Japan’s economy is under the gun to capture SRA quickly. They do have more “toys” to play with, but they cannot produce them all. Options and more options. John’s vision was to make Japan more capable longer, but not overwhelming. That’s why I’m playing this version and there are two new sets of AARs playing the newest versions.

Although I am a die-hard JFB, I am playing as the Allies in the latest version of BtS Light. The exercise came about because I wanted to know the enemy better, and boy, am I getting an education! I have made a number of mistakes, as I don't have a feel for the Allied tempo yet, but I am finding the Allied side a bit more forgiving in this mod... or at least I think so at this point

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

That's a LOT of HI. 144 per plane. Is the Japanese economy changed at all?

It is!!

I have some experience with the first IJA heavy bomber against a brief Force Blue game against C-C. It really is worth making a squadron or two. The ability to hit deep and hard very early, without depleting your Nell/Betty squadrons is pretty darn neat.

They make for a great strategic bomber wing to nail the Chinese, Soviets, Oz, and even India. Port and Runway strikes deep.

If you have the option you need to make them, and use them to spread out all those Allied Fighters and AA.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

To have players who have NOT downloaded or are playing BTS or BTS Lite mod, the Allies have dedicated training groups - three USA Army, two Marine, three USN, and one Brit group that are just doing this. So, these mods are not a JFB dream set up. Many of the issues from RA which show up in Canoerebel vs John 3rd AARs, have been corrected. IMO, the current versions should be balanced, but possibly more bloody. [:)]

I will have time over the holidays to download and really get into the numbers, but I will pick just one BTS or Lite...which would you recommend?

[Mike Solli]

I used to be interested in the one that (if I remember correctly) decreased capacity on most or all of the ships and added a bunch of new ones (I think, small for the most part). Which one is that?

[Kitakami]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
I will have time over the holidays to download and really get into the numbers, but I will pick just one BTS or Lite...which would you recommend?

If you are playing the Japanese side, play Lite. No Yamato/Musashi/Shinano, so building program is adjusted, you get the Owari-class BBs (9x 41 cm rifles), and you get 2 at start, 1x in '43, and 1x in '44. In my humble opinion, you are better off.

[Lowpe]

Mike, absolutely mandatory reading for any JFB. Current playstyles, which sees a large investment in airplanes makes supply the normal endgame critical factor.

If instead you went for a huge navy then perhaps HI could be the crunch.




Alfred's Supply Opus:

(A) Overview

The determination of how large a supply stockpile should be, or how long it might last, is not an exact science. There are too many variables outside of a player’s control for 100% predictive accuracy. What can be identified are the factors which impact upon supply stockpiles at a particular base. These factors can be broadly classified as falling within the following areas:

• Supply creation
• Supply movement
• Supply destruction
• Supply consumption

These areas are looked at in detail in the following sections. When the discussion touches on naval matters, fuel is included in the discussion. By necessity, this discussion is essentially a summary, for complete details of all the game scenario data and relationships, readers are directed back to the manual.

One very important point for players to be aware of is that the aggregated supply of all your supply stockpiles from all your bases is of no real value. To accomplish anything you need to have supply (and fuel) locally where it will be consumed. Ten million supply points located in San Francisco, Los Angeles and San Diego will not feed your forces fighting on Guadalcanal. Those forces will be fed solely out of what is stored locally on Guadalcanal.

(B) Mummy, where does supply come from?

There are three basic supply sources:

• National Automatic
• Imports
• Industrial Enterprises

The Burma Road is a unique supply source. Each turn that the Allied player can trace an uninterrupted supply path along the transportation network linking Rangoon and Tsuyung, 500 supply points are delivered to Tsuyung.

(B.1) National Automatic

Scenario designers can assign a daily amount of supply (and or fuel) which will automatically arrive each day at a base. This automatic delivery will cease immediately upon the capture of the base by the enemy. The deliveries will immediately resume when the base is liberated from the enemy.

The amount delivered daily is the figure to the right of the slash in the supplies on hand data found on the base screen (see manual page 205). There is nothing the player can do to increase or reduce this amount in game, other than of course to lose/capture the base.

(B.2) Imports

Some importation of supply to a base occurs automatically without any player action required. Players can manually attempt to import supply (and fuel). The opposing player can block the automatic importation, or attempt to interdict the imported supply.
Most automatic importation of supply (and fuel) occurs overland but under certain restricted circumstances, it can also occur over water (see s.9.3.3.3 of the manual). There is no aerial automatic importation of supply. Players can manually import, by ships both supply and fuel, but airplanes cannot transport fuel they can only transport supply. Players cannot manually directly import supply (and fuel) overland, however by manipulation of the supply required spinner or stockpile option, a player can manually exert some influence on the direction and amount of supply moved overland by the program automatically.

Supply will not move automatically overland through a hexside owned by the enemy nor through a contested hex.
How often supply will automatically move overland depends on the quality of the overland transportation links. The table in s.8.3.1 of the manual details the cost of moving supply through the different terrain types and transportation infrastructure.

Each overland transportation route has a value which is determined by subtracting from 100 the cost of movement associated with each hex along which the supply must travel. The value of the overland route then determines how often a delivery is made:

• Four times per week if the overland transportation route amounts to 89 - 100
• Two times per week if the route amounts to 49 – 88
• Once per week if the route amounts to 10 – 48

Bases will only export supply which is viewed as surplus. Supply in excess of 3x the amount required by the base is considered surplus. This surplus supply may go to another base or be consumed by LCUs in the field.

The amount of supply which can be delivered by a Transport plane or Level Bomber is (Maximum Load)/2000. Fractions are rounded down but each plane can always deliver a minimum of 1 supply point.

(B.3) Industrial Enterprises

Most supply is generated by industrial enterprises. For the official scenarios supply is generated by:

• Heavy Industry, inputs needed are resources and fuel
• Light Industry, input needed is only resources
• Refinery, input needed is only oil

Players must distinguish between raw material production facilities and manufacturing facilities.

Raw material production facilities are resource and oil centres. These facilities immediately cease to produce raw materials as soon as any enemy LCU enters the hex.

Provided they retain access to the necessary raw materials, either by importation or accessing a local stockpile, manufacturing facilities will continue to produce supply even if an enemy LCU is present in the hex.

Production at all industrial enterprises can be damaged by several means:

• City attack air mission (see pages 151-152 of the manual)
• Naval bombardment task force
• Upon base capture by the enemy, the amount of damage suffered by these facilities is influenced by the quantity of defending surviving engineers present at the changeover

(C) Honey, I seem to have shrunk the supply stockpile!

Sometimes players will look at the supply stockpiled at a base and see it is inexplicably disappearing. Excluding the detailed factors which are looked at in section (D) below, the usual reasons for an unexplained shrinking supply stockpile are:

• Supply (and fuel) spoilage
• Repair of industrial enterprises
• Airfield/port supply hits

(C.1) Spoilage

Bases whose combined airfield and port levels amount to less than 9 can suffer spoilage of their supply (and fuel) stockpile.

Spoilage will occur if the following base thresholds are exceeded:

• Size 8 – above 197k supply (129k fuel)
• Size 7 – above 152k supply (99k fuel)
• Size 6 – above 113k supply (73k fuel)
• Size 5 – above 80k supply (51k fuel)
• Size 4 – above 53k supply (33k fuel)
• Size 3 – above 32k supply (19k fuel)
• Size 2 – above 17k supply (9k fuel)
• Size 1 – above 8k supply (3k fuel)

Note that the check for spoilage is made for each stockpile. A Size 8 base with 154k supply plus 83k fuel will not suffer spoilage. It will suffer supply spoilage if it has 204k supply plus 22k fuel.

Dot bases can store up to 5k supplies and 1k fuel before suffering spoilage.

(C.2) Industrial Repairs

It costs supply to repair damaged industrial facilities. This is a particularly important point for Japanese players to remember for they have many more industrial facilities which might need to be repaired than the list of those dealt with in section (B.3) above.

The cost to repair a single damaged industrial centre is 1k supply. The repair will only commence if the player has also “lodged“ a 10k supply “bond” with the “tradesmen”. The supply must be present onsite.

(C.3) Airfield/Port Supply Hits

Attacks against airfields and ports can result in supply hits which destroy some supply. The actual amount so destroyed is very difficult to quantify for several reasons.

• The combat report is subject to FOW so there is always some uncertainty as to how many hits actually ensued
• Fort levels and terrain affect the supply hits
• The amount of supply destroyed is a random amount based on the device’s effect and anti-soft rating – essentially the bigger the bomb the more damage inflicted

(D) Professor, they’ll never find a use for supply, there just isn’t any demand for it!

Congratulations, if you have read this far, now comes the pay off. Supply present locally is the game currency needed to undertake the following activities not mentioned previously.

• Feed LCUs – starving LCUs have reduced firepower, reduced capacity to reduce fatigue, a lower adjusted Assault Value
• Air missions
• Rearm ships after combat
• Pay for receiving replacements for both land and air units
• Construction of base facilities

(D.1) LCU supply cost

Most players emphasise the Assault Value (AV) of a LCU instead of the combat firepower of the unit which is a much more useful measure. The merits of the two measures is however a discussion best left to another day. What players do generally tend to pay little attention is the cost of maintaining a unit out in the field.

The average size of a fully built up Allied division is about 450 AV. A fully equipped Chinese LCU could be double this but they tend to lack access to the necessary supply. A division of about 450 AV, which is not engaged in combat will consume approximately 1500 supply points monthly, or 50 daily. A brigade of approximately 150 AV not engaged in combat will consume approximately 500 supply points monthly.

(D.2) Cost of air missions

Each sortie flown consumes supply. Lack the requisite supply, the air mission is not flown. The actual supply cost depends on the type of mission flown and the type of plane as follows:

• Offensive Mission flown by a Level Bomber, the cost is (Maximum Load/1000) per plane
• Offensive Mission flown by a Dive Bomb or Torpedo, the cost is 1 supply point per plane
• Other missions such as Search and CAP expend only 1/3 of a supply point per plane

Hence a 12 plane Liberator squadron sent to bomb an airfield will consume 96 supply points. A USMC torpedo squadron of 18 Avengers will consume 18 supply points.

(D.3) Ship Rearming

The rearming of a ship after combat consumes supply. The supply cost is:

• [(Weapon Effect Rating * 2) * (Number of Guns) * (Ammo per gun)] / 2000

(D.4) Cost of replacements

The basic supply cost for a LCU replacement device is the load cost.

For air units, the supply cost for each replacement airframe depends on the type of airframe:

• 12 supply points for fighter, fighter bomber
• 15 supply points for dive bomber, torpedo bomber, float plane, float fighter
• 18 supply points for night fighter, recon
• 30 supply points for heavy bomber, medium bomber, light bomber, attack bomber, transport, patrol

Thus the previously mentioned 12 plane Liberator squadron (see D.2 above) consumed 96 supply points to fly the mission. If the squadron had 4 planes shot down, it would need an additional 120 supply points to replace it’s losses.

(D.5) Base facilities

The repair of base facilities (airfield and port) does not cost supply. However the construction of base facilities (airfield, port and forts) does consume supply. The supply is not actually consumed by the facility but by the engineers engaged in the construction work.

Engineers must be in combat mode to build base facilities. Whilst working, each engineer (an engineer vehicle = 5 engineers) consumes 1 supply point each 12 hours. Hence if a player has 100 engineers building, they will consume 200 supply points daily, an amount which is equivalent to approximately 4 infantry divisions.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

I used to be interested in the one that (if I remember correctly) decreased capacity on most or all of the ships and added a bunch of new ones (I think, small for the most part). Which one is that?

That is the one I am currently playing with Obvert. DaIronbabes I think it is called, whoever named these should be shot, or maybe simply it is my mind...for the life of me I can never remember which is which (all the other contributors to this mod should be given medals). I will double check the scenario number, but I seem to think it is #28 for a Scenario 1 style game with lots of small ships and reduced cargo capacity, stacking limits, and a revised oob for both sides....labor squads etc.

[Mike Solli]

Thanks, Lowpe. I printed it off to read at my leisure and add to my binder.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

I used to be interested in the one that (if I remember correctly) decreased capacity on most or all of the ships and added a bunch of new ones (I think, small for the most part). Which one is that?

That is the one I am currently playing with Obvert. DaIronbabes I think it is called, whoever named these should be shot, or maybe simply it is my mind...for the life of me I can never remember which is which (all the other contributors to this mod should be given medals). I will double check the scenario number, but I seem to think it is #28 for a Scenario 1 style game with lots of small ships and reduced cargo capacity, stacking limits, and a revised oob for both sides....labor squads etc.

I don't recall hearing about the labor squads, but I think that is the one. How do you like it?

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Thanks, Lowpe. I printed it off to read at my leisure and add to my binder.

Ha! I have read and re-read that document countless times.[:D]

Instead of a binder, which I did have once upon a time...I use Onenote on the cloud. However, I am slowly but surely migrating over to Zoho.com as I am trying to diversify my business away from Microsoft/Google.

[ny59giants]

I've played DBB and mods based on it for so many years now, that a stock game and the LCUs look totally strange to me. [:D]

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Ahh, that's a big difference. The vast majority of my FP groups are at 24 and doing Naval Search/ASW duty against subs along the SLOC to the SRA and other critical choke points. I train them in both and then put the unit at 40% NS, 40% ASW and 20% rest.

If you do these settings, my experience is (over 3 years of these missions) ops losses will be high. I either reduced the percentages or the range to normal, not extended, or both.

It's telling that the Jake was (and maybe still is) the plane in the game that has the most losses. Over 1200 to ops.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Losing the fleet in 1943 would not be a wise course of action.  However, sustaining some ship losses to destroy an Allied invasion fleet can be a very good outcome.  See the impact Lowpe's destruction of the Midway invasion fleet had on his Allied opponent's plans.  Went a long way to achieving the circumstances which led to his withdrawal from the match.

Re airplane sortie consumption, page 252 of the manual provides the details.  Essentially supply consumption per sortie is:

• 1 for non level bombers flying an offensive mission
• level bombers flying an offensive mission expend (maximum load/1000)
• 1 for escort mission
• 1/3 for all other missions

Alfred

exactly, so for Helen at normal that is 2 sup/mission.
DT is 2x ... to escort/sweeps get pricey for Tojo
CAP is cheap though ... and rest is free.

[:D]

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Ahh, that's a big difference. The vast majority of my FP groups are at 24 and doing Naval Search/ASW duty against subs along the SLOC to the SRA and other critical choke points. I train them in both and then put the unit at 40% NS, 40% ASW and 20% rest.

If you do these settings, my experience is (over 3 years of these missions) ops losses will be high. I either reduced the percentages or the range to normal, not extended, or both.

It's telling that the Jake was (and maybe still is) the plane in the game that has the most losses. Over 1200 to ops.

Ok, I just checked and my Jake op losses to date are 61. The only unit that had a lot of losses was one where I had 70% doing ASW/NS and the other 30% on training. I'll fix that next turn. Some of them have their morale low (for me) at ~60 with fatigue creeping up to 25-30. I'll up the rest % next turn as well.

[Mike Solli]

Ok guys, maybe you can figure this out. My bombardment TF, including Yamato and Musashi, bombarded Adak then moved back to Etorofu, where they completely replenished, including the 18 inchers. Etorofu has a size 3 port and no naval support. Here's Etorofu: