Soviet construction units

[Dreamslayer]

In the game we can see only 8 soviet construction units on the start of the war. It is 8 RR Construction Brigades, perhaps it is railroads brigades. That is all.
It is look a bit strange what USSR have so small numbers this kind of units in his own territory.

I've found some more in 2 sources.

1) RR Brigades in the Active Army on June 1941:
# 1,4,5,6,9,11,13,15,17,19,29
More from July: # 26,28,30

Source – Data list #7 of Brigades which was parts of the Active Army during the war 1941-45(on Russian)
http://www.teatrskazka.com/Raznoe/Perec ... 06.html#06

2) Construction batallions in the parts of M.D./Fronts:
On 22 June :
Baltic MD – 37 btn and 2 companies
Kiev MD – 20 btn and 18 companies
Western MD – 17 btn
Leningrad MD – 1 btn and 1 company
Transbaikal MD – 2 btn
Far East Front – 8 btn

On 29 July:
NW Front – 17 btn
Western Front – 8 btn
SW Front – 12 btn

On 19 September:
Karelian Front – 7 btn
Leningrad Front – 24 btn
NW Front – 27 btn
Western Front – 9 btn
Reserve and Bryansk Front – 129 btn
Moscow MD – 61 btn
SW Front – 28 btn
Southern Front – 28 btn

Source – V.N.Malyarov “The Construction front during the Great Patriotic War. Creating strategic defensive barriers and bridgeheads for security of defensive operations of the armed forces during the war 1941-45.” .

[Aufklaerungs]

Check Commanders Report for campaign scenarios using construction troop filter. Eight brigades available (No Delay) on 22 June 41 (21,600 men). NKPS commands + five new brigades arrive as reinforcements after turns 64, 90, 116 and 142, respectively, each comprising 19,000 men per turn. Total construction troops after T-142: 28 Brigades and four NKPS HQs.

After Soviet Union invaded/occupied Eastern Poland in September 1939, and annexed Baltic states, North Bukovina and Bessarabia in June 1940, only the Euro-gauge tracks selected for priority military supply routes and four connecting commercial trade routes required conversion work and specialized maintenance for Soviet locomotives and rolling stock.

In 1943, following Rumyantsev and Kutuzov and in 1944 following Bagration, operations in Rumania & Hungary, RKKA found itself in need of additional railroad construction formations to rebuild long sections of track and bridges destroyed by retreating Germans & Axis. allies.

[Dreamslayer]

I'm talking about what USSR have only 8 construction units at start. Units which can assist build forts. Look at German OOB, there are 132 construction batallions and 2 groups(4 batallions) it is without 4 FBD units.

Btw there is other view on "invaded/occupied/annexed". Most of these territories was parts of Russian Empire with the exception of Lvov region and perhaps Lomzha region. Most of these territories got their "independence" when they was occupied by Germany. Bessarabia was annexed by Romania. So it is only the return mostly. Anyway it was time of this kind of actions. Germany with the approval of Britain and France devided Czechoslovakia, Poland also got a piece for himself. Read Neville Chamberlain's quotes about this it is very funny.

[chaos45]

dreamslayer---this is one of the reasons the soviets have a buildable OOB, and soviet players build lots of sapper regiments to get that construction ability.....and another reason why Soviets building sapper regiments isnt a problem or really unrealistic based on the current game design.

[Dreamslayer]

But for build new units Soviet player have to spent his AP and exp level of newly created units almost useless in first turns when Soviet side really need all of them.
Why Soviet player can't have some more construction units at start?
I just want to see correct level of details for both side. And it is not really cool when one side looks like have certain/correct OOB and the other have something obscure with option "you can fix it by creating new units".

[morvael]

Blame the Soviets for making their unit data not so easily available to Western scenario designers. Wite2 has more accurate data based on new sources, like Askey.

[Dreamslayer]

ORIGINAL: morvael

Blame the Soviets for making their unit data not so easily available to Western scenario designers.

Perhaps Western scenario designers need to have in their teams someone with knowledge of Russian.
I don't think details like who was leader of the main soviet HQ on the start of the war is really hard to find even in English.

[Aufklaerungs]

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

ORIGINAL: morvael

Blame the Soviets for making their unit data not so easily available to Western scenario designers.

Perhaps Western scenario designers need to have in their teams someone with knowledge of Russian.
I don't think details like who was leader of the main soviet HQ on the start of the war is really hard to find even in English.

Yes, Dreamslayer, I agree. It should be someone who knows these countries received their independence from the Soviet Union in 1917 when CCCP withdrew from World War I after making a separate deal with Germany and separate peace with the Central Powers; and in 1920 after RKKA invasion suffered a crushing defeat by Poland that preserved independence for several of those countries, whose borders were set by CCCP and recognized by League of Nations.

[Aufklaerungs]

btw, according to your upload from your source, there are only eight railroad brigades shown as active RKKA units on 22 June 1941; Maybe my russki is a little rusti, but I think these dates are Activation (formation) and Deactivation dates.

XXVI. УПРАВЛЕНИЯ ЖЕЛЕЗНОДОРОЖНЫХ БРИГАД (organization of railroad brigades)

Наименования Периоды вхождения
в Действующую
армию Последующие
переформирования
и преобразования
1 железнодорожная бригада 22.6.41-9.5.45
1 гвардейская железнодорожная бригада
Преобразована из 28 ждбр 28.4.42 г. 28.4.42-9.5.45
2 эксплуатационная железнодорожная бригада 20.7.44-5.1.45
3 железнодорожная бригада 23.3.43-17.3.45
9.8.45-3.9.45
4 железнодорожная бригада 22.6.41-9.5.45
5 железнодорожная бригада 22.6.41-9.5.45
6 железнодорожная бригада 22.6.41-20.3.45
7 железнодорожная бригада 8.3.43-23.3.45
8 железнодорожная бригада 18.3.43-20.3.45
9 железнодорожная бригада:
I формирование 26.6.41-16.9.41 Переформирована в 9 сбр (I)
II формирование 7.2.42-19.2.45 Переформирована из 9 сбр (I)
10 железнодорожная бригада 10.11.42-9.5.45
11 железнодорожная бригада 26.6.41-9.5.45
12 железнодорожная бригада 1.2.43-9.5.45
13 железнодорожная бригада 22.6.41-9.5.45
14 железнодорожная бригада 30.4.43-11.5.45
15 железнодорожная бригада 22.6.41-10.4.45
16 эксплуатационная железнодорожная бригада 10.8.44-8.1.45 Переформирована в ВЭУ № 1
17 железнодорожная бригада 22.6.41-10.4.45
18 эксплуатационная железнодорожная бригада 1.8.44-8.1.45 Переформирована в ВЭУ № 3
19 железнодорожная бригада 30.6.41-11.5.45
21 железнодорожная бригада 1.4.43-9.5.45
23 железнодорожная бригада 20.3.43-9.5.45
25 железнодорожная бригада 15.7.41-1.6.42
1.4.43-1.4.45
9.8.45-3.9.45
26 железнодорожная бригада 25.7.41-9.5.45
27 железнодорожная бригада 1.8.41-11.5.45
28 железнодорожная бригада 17.7.41-28.4.42 Преобразована в 1 гв. ждбр 28.4.42 г.
29 железнодорожная бригада 22.6.41-9.5.45
30 железнодорожная бригада 19.7.41-17.1.1.44
36 железнодорожная бригада 23.11.41-28.1.42
1.5.42-10.9.44
43 железнодорожная бригада 1.2.44-16.10.44
7.3.45-11.5.45
44 железнодорожная бригада 25.4.42-11.5.45
45 железнодорожная бригада 15.1.43-25.11.43
20.3.44-11.5.45
46 железнодорожная бригада 10.10.42-11.5.45
47 железнодорожная бригада 2.5.42-11.5.45
49 эксплуатационная железнодорожная бригада 9.8.45-3.9.45
50 эксплуатационная железнодорожная бригада 25.6.44-9.5.45
9.8.45-3.9.45

[56ajax]

Oh what fun!!! [:D] Soviet OOB...

Now I was informed that WitE uses the date of 21st of June 1941 for the first turn OOB so if a unit is not part of the Armed Services on that date it will not be included in T1. So on that basis none of the brigades should be available for T1????

Now unlike Dreamslayer, Russian is not my mother tongue so I am reliant on Google Translator. SPNILHOB, I do not read Activation date as Formation date but rather the date the unit was assigned to the Red Army (left the railways and became an active Red Army Unit). That is it already existed but was not assigned to the Army until the AXIS powers crossed the border, like a mobilisation plan. Could be wrong.

However if we stick with the original 8 I think there is a reasonable case to argue for 3 more to come as reinforcements on T2 and perhaps another 3 in July. After that I would do more research.....

[Dreamslayer]

Dates from this list its not dates of Forming or disbanding of these units. It is dates when these units was in part of the Active Army(Действующая Армия). I have no ideas how to better explain this term.
For example dates of the Command and HQ of the Black Sea Fleet in this data-list. 22.06.41 - 19.06.44.
Do you think the Command and HQ of the Black Sea Fleet was formed on 22 June,1941 and was disbanded 19 June 1944? =)

Next, I dont care about ability of Soviet side to repair RR during pre-blizzard turns. I`m talking about strange situation when all of the construction abilities of support units is only these 8 RR brigades for whole USSR. 8 RR brigades = 1440 labor squads = 14400 men, of course there are many hammers and sickles on flags but it is not really helps =)

About your drama story of Baltic republics.
Imagine situation what if after the France's surrender in 1940 some parts of this nation under Germany's pressure has been took "independence" . E.g. Corsica, Normandy,Syria (put here random region of France). And later after Germany surrender in 1945 France want their own territories back and took answer "sorry but these nations are now independent". Cool story? =)
Russian Empire was part of Entente alliance. This alliance won that war but Russia for un(known) reasons can't take thier own lands back.

[morvael]

Ouch, a Russian Imperialist. This conversation will turn sour soon.

[Dreamslayer]

I'm Imperialist? huh
Better answer that situation with taking-away russian territories when they was under German occupation is normal and fair?
I've gave hypothetical example about France.
Anyway this is topic about lack of construction units at start for soviet side.

[morvael]

It's important not to confuse multi-national empires like Tsarist Russia or Soviet Union with mono-national countries and/or a single nationality. Empires are inherently multi-national, therefore if the power holding the empire together disappears, they will disintegrate into various mono-national countries, previously united (by will or by force, it doesn't matter here) into the empire. After WW1 (mostly because of USA/Wilson) there was a drive to let each nation in the defeated empires (German Empire, Austria-Hungary) to decide for themselves and estabilish new countries. And in Russian Empire this happened spontaneously because of Revolution and the disappearance of that unifying imperial power. Also, Russia after revolution and Brest treaty was no longer part of Entente, and as you know GB and USA tried to intervene in the Civil War on behalf of the Whites, so it's not like they were friends of Red Russia at that time. So the argument of being a losing victor of WW1 is moot. Russia lost WW1 to Central Powers, before they in turn lost WW1 to the rest of the Entente. Besides history knows a lot of similar situations in which countries nominally in the winning camp actually lost more than they gained (for example Poland in WW2). From imperial Russian/Soviet standpoint, indeed Baltic States can be considered "their land". On the other hand people living in those countries may be of different opinion. In the end might makes right, such is the world we live in. Geographical, economic, religious, racial, historical arguments are just that - arguments to justify taking some land so that others will not try to take it back. In the end they are as strong as the might of the conqueror. Strong is not equal to objectively valid/right/true. Since every person or group of people can have their own agenda there is no objective arguments when talking about who should own what [:)]

As for the construction units, I hope Denniss sees this discussion and, if possible within constrains we operate under, will review his sources and make adjustments as necessary.
For rail repair, Soviet construction units are of little use in the early war with the constant retreats and the special rule preventing them to repair within 5 hexes of enemy hexes. So they would be mostly used for fort construction. If those RR units were not used in that role, there is no point in adding them. If yes, then I'd be happy to see them in game.

edit: Nationality model in the game with Soviet nationality on all 1940's USSR territory is wrong, but it was made so only for the purposes of the production model. It's not there to be used as teaching aid. Just like there are no horses in the game except bonus supply consumption of foot units, there are only a few special rules for some of USSR territories instead of modelling complicated ethnic issues.

[Denniss]

It is my understanding that most of the Sapper Bns/Rgts we currently have as Engineer units (=offensive/assault engineers) were actually construction units (construction specialists, labor/workers) so these should be accounted for.
Please note that we do not usually model bridging engineers.

If you have more details about the construction bns spread all over the districts I would be happy to get some details like unit name, assignment, manpower strength

[Dreamslayer]

ORIGINAL: Denniss

If you have more details about the construction bns spread all over the districts I would be happy to get some details like unit name, assignment, manpower strength

The best source about soviet construction units which I've found atm is the book - V.N.Malyarov “The Construction front during the Great Patriotic War. Creating strategic defensive barriers and bridgeheads for security of defensive operations of the armed forces during the war 1941-45.” / В.Н. Маляров «Строительный фронт в годы Великой Отечественной войны. Создание стратегических рубежей и плацдармов для обеспечения оборонительных операций вооруженных сил в годы войны 1941–1945 гг. СПб.: Военно-инженерный университет, 2000»
Because of it is very limited edition, this book almostly impossible to buy or find in the library. So some fans of fortifications somehow could to got it for a short time. I've found it on their forum, it is scanned/recognized text with some corrections. If you know how or where I can to buy this book let me know.
http://rufort.info/library/malyarov/malyarov.html - link to this text (on Russian of course)
Of course it is for those who able to read on Russian or able to use translators like google or something similar.
Start reading from Part one(Глава Первая .Организация сил оборонительного строительства при переходе к стратегической обороне)if you do not want to read blah-blah in the introduction.
Of course it is not the best historical work but because of great shortage for this subject it is best what did I find atm.
There are many links in this work for different sources, most of them it is links for documents in the achives of the Ministry of Defence(ЦАМО РФ).

[Dreamslayer]

morvael,
I would be glad to discuss with you these "fair/unfair territorial changes before that war" but...
it will be OT here and it will be out of forum rules(if I'm understanding right).
In my posts above I've tried to explain other view on this, in which is no sides who is 100% right.
You can relax, noone here do not want to return Poland, Baltic republics etc., with the exception of small groups of crazy guys a small percentage of which have each country. Why I need to want return Finland for example? It is nice place for the shopping and winter holydays =)

[morvael]

Don't worry, I'm not into such discussions. I just wanted to point out data in game is what it is, because the engine needs it that way to work properly or because of design decisions made years ago or because of lack of resources (or sources) to do it properly. Game data should not be used as argument in discussions about history. Example: no partisans in Poland or other occupied lands, because the game can only handle Soviet partisans. It doesn't mean there were no such partisans or that their impact on German war machine was negligible (it wasn't).

[Aufklaerungs]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnlWb5kQJNA[:)]

I get it. Capabilities and limitations of the tools used to build something grand may demand some trade-offs and compromises to get the job done. So glad you guys are flexible in making adjustments whenever possible. [8D]

[morvael]

Askey, volume IIIA, pages 424-427
18 separate engineer regiments
23 separate engineer battalions (3 motorized)

of which 10 + 14 (2) were in western districts, and 3 battalions were in STAVKA reserve.

10 battalions (2 motorized) were deployed before year's end.

There were 14 pontoon bridge regiments and 6 pontoon bridge battalions, but we don't have these types of units in WitE.

Also, 28 construction battalions were mobilised and deployed before year's end.