The early air war

[morvael]

Was there a conscious effort at industry bombing on the east front apart from maybe Ploesti or only terror (city) bombing (excluding tactical during city fights), like Moscow?

[morvael]

Perhaps factories should expand normally when under 10% damage.

[Telemecus]

double post

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: morvael
Was there a conscious effort at industry bombing on the east front apart from maybe Ploesti or only terror (city) bombing (excluding tactical during city fights), like Moscow?

AFAIK none at all - although the Soviet air forces were deployed in the rear to defend their industry at all times as were Axis air forces. So there was never a free run.

The fuhrer directive for Barbarossa did explicitly say the 1941 campaign would end with the Luftwaffe bombing the remaining industry that the army had not reached, so it would certainly have been historical if the Axis had had more success in 1941. Although as the Axis bombers were always more geared to ground support, they never had a heavy bomber for instance, you could argue it would not be anything like the western bombing effort. The battle of Britain is the closest analogy. However the large integrated Soviet factories were bigger targets to hit. You did not have to hit the final assembly area, only any upstream component manufacture co-located with it.

ORIGINAL: morvael
Perhaps factories should expand normally when under 10% damage.

I think the expansion model does need to be looked at with regards to bombing. If bombing only applied to general industry, not named factories, or if bombing could only select a city but which factories you hit in it were random, this issue would not arise or would matter less. How easy that is to change in WitE1 or 2 is another question of course.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: morvael

Was there a conscious effort at industry bombing on the east front apart from maybe Ploesti or only terror (city) bombing (excluding tactical during city fights), like Moscow?

Look for the bombing of "Gorki". That is the one that I know that the Germans conducted during 41-43. It is an interesting read.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: morvael

Perhaps factories should expand normally when under 10% damage.

Yes, they should imho

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

ORIGINAL: morvael
Was there a conscious effort at industry bombing on the east front apart from maybe Ploesti or only terror (city) bombing (excluding tactical during city fights), like Moscow?

AFAIK none at all - although the Soviet air forces were deployed in the rear to defend their industry at all times as were Axis air forces. So there was never a free run.

The fuhrer directive for Barbarossa did explicitly say the 1941 campaign would end with the Luftwaffe bombing the remaining industry that the army had not reached, so it would certainly have been historical if the Axis had had more success in 1941. Although as the Axis bombers were always more geared to ground support, they never had a heavy bomber for instance, you could argue it would not be anything like the western bombing effort. The battle of Britain is the closest analogy. However the large integrated Soviet factories were bigger targets to hit. You did not have to hit the final assembly area, only any upstream component manufacture co-located with it.

Posting again to take a look at the bombing of Gorki.

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
Posting again to take a look at the bombing of Gorki.

Very interesting just from google search on the subject. I had been wholely unaware of any industrial bombing on the Eastern front until now. Very interesting that the bombing raids were targeting a "named" factory and not just an area.

The Axis did not pursue this constantly. But that is not to say doing so would be ahistorical - they could have if they wanted to. There were no technological or other barriers. They just chose to use their air forces more tactically. I think it is a reasonable choice for a wargame to make of "what if" they had chosen to use their air forces more to target industry rather than tactically.

I suspect as there has been little use previously in the game of this option there is no good calibration of whether this is over or under powered though.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
Posting again to take a look at the bombing of Gorki.

Very interesting just from google search on the subject. I had been wholely unaware of any industrial bombing on the Eastern front until now. Very interesting that the bombing raids were targeting a "named" factory and not just an area.

The Axis did not pursue this constantly. But that is not to say doing so would be ahistorical - they could have if they wanted to. There were no technological or other barriers. They just chose to use their air forces more tactically. I think it is a reasonable choice for a wargame to make of "what if" they had chosen to use their air forces more to target industry rather than tactically.

I suspect as there has been little use previously in the game of this option there is no good calibration of whether this is over or under powered though.

Yes, correct. The Germans can defiantly do it & should still be able to do so. I still think there should be night bombing in the game, just the results should not be as devastating as daylight bombing. If you read further into the history of Gorky bombing the measures that the Soviets employed (Germans too in Germany) of camouflaging buildings (by painting them to look like residential from the air) and smoke screens and a whole host of other things such as building a whole area to look like the factories. They would then turn on the lights at these false areas and off at the the real factories.

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
I still think there should be night bombing in the game, just the results should not be as devastating as daylight bombing.

Can you point to any examples of effective night bombing in WitE? I have never been able to get any good results with night bombing, only day bombing.

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: morvael

For a long time I have been thinking about reducing this bonus from +5 to +1.

\
Maybe something more like (100 - morale) (rnd(20) * K (some decimal constant)
Thus the higher the morale the less effect of getting out from the front lines but the lower the morale the more effect ...with a bit of randomness a really good turn or a really bad turn the notorious Gary Grisby die roll!

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
I still think there should be night bombing in the game, just the results should not be as devastating as daylight bombing.

Can you point to any examples of effective night bombing in WitE. I have never been able to get any good results with night bombing, only day bombing.

I'm referencing the night bombing of Airbases. I believe you may be referring to factories. I know in my last game played I had a night bombing of an airbase killing 25 Fighters in one attack. Maybe that was a one off but most of the time can easily get 5~15 aircraft airfield bombing. Which could also be attributed to Germans flying fatigued at night.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
I still think there should be night bombing in the game, just the results should not be as devastating as daylight bombing.

Can you point to any examples of effective night bombing in WitE. I have never been able to get any good results with night bombing, only day bombing.

I'm referencing the night bombing of Airbases. I believe you may be referring to factories. I know in my last game played I had a night bombing of an airbase killing 25 Fighters in one attack. Maybe that was a one off but most of the time can easily get 5~15 aircraft airfield bombing. Which could also be attributed to Germans flying fatigued at night.

I think we need more data from all that are playing to get a good perspective to be honest.

[Twigster]

I can check at my next turn. [8D]

[tyronec]

Can you point to any examples of effective night bombing in WitE?Can you point to any examples of effective night bombing in WitE?

If your opponent does not have any fighters set to Night then serious damage can be done to air bases with night bombing. Does anyone know how the game works with escorted bombers vs fighters at night (would expect less kills for the number of planes involved and same amount of fatigue) ?

Would concur that night bombing is too effective, and the U2VSs are way too powerful. Game works fine if there is Axis fighter cover but if the fighters are cleared away and the U2s can mass bomb at daytime they are better than some LBs.

To be honest the problem began when every plane could start flying "NIGHT" missions.

I disagree with this, the tactic of fatiguing the Axis fighters to death works without night missions.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: tyronec

To be honest the problem began when every plane could start flying "NIGHT" missions.

I disagree with this, the tactic of fatiguing the Axis fighters to death works without night missions.

Yes, it is true you can do so with the incorrect settings or being super aggressive. But my point in my saying is that the problem was exacerbated more by the "addition" of night missions being added to the German fighters list of things to do.

[morvael]

It was always possible to fly night missions with every plane, but required more clicks and passive player could not react.

[morvael]

Nobody forces you to use Both settings for German fighters

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: morvael

It was always possible to fly night missions with every plane, but required more clicks and passive player could not react.

You could fly either Day or Night missions and NOT BOTH. That is what made the difference when the ability to fly both without further refining your settings.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: morvael

It was always possible to fly night missions with every plane, but required more clicks and passive player could not react.

You could fly either Day or Night missions and NOT BOTH. That is what made the difference when the ability to fly both without further refining your settings.

Also the loses for night flying used to be more severe if I remember correctly. Or at least it seemed so to me.