What should SU be doing while GE/IT are working on Med 41 or Sealion?

[jjdenver]

Subject says it all. Opinions on what SU should be trying to accomplish if they have no appointments with GE/IT scheduled in 1941? Bellying up to the border seems like a bad idea since Germany would be happy to romp over a forward-deployed Red Army in 42. Persia? Finland? Japan? Or just sit still and build troops?

[Centuur]

It depends a little bit on what the Axis are doing. If it looks like the Axis will succeed in closing the Med and than want to align Iraq, than the Soviets should think about Persia and Iraq to prevent this. Tojo might want to interfere with this, but if the Axis are going for a Barb 42, it isn't that bad to go to war with Japan in 1941 over the Persian oil and Manchuria (especially if you can save the Chinese by doing so). No way you should allow German troops to cross the Iraqi-Persian border mountains, if only to prevent the Turkish hordes appearing so close to your precious oil fields...

Bessarabia is a must do. Finland a little less so with the unified map in MWIF.

And of course: build troops, troops and more troops. HQ first, GAR, CAV, INF second. Make sure you've got a nice chunk of oil saved in Leningrad and also one point in Sevastopol and Rostov (those cities are real fortresses). FTR's in those cities also makes it more difficult for the Axis to ground strike them. I usually build a pilot for a TB-3 if it's sitting around in the reserve pool (the best planes in the game, IMHO).

A Barb 1942 usually sees a larger Soviet army, making it a lot more difficult to crack the frontlines for Germany. More units means more hexes to be taken with a fight in will slow Germany down a lot, compared to a Barb 1941...

[Dabrion]

RU can stand at the border as long as Germany is not contesting the Garrison. You will have to back up when events happen that will untie large quantities of troops (Fall of Paris, Fall of the Rock, etc..). Miss the bus on backing up (esp. while neutral) can lead to a lock situation where backing up would immediately bust the Garrison, you want to prevent that.

The '42 Barb is a very different game for Germany. For me it is synonymous with a Sitz, so don't count on a German offensive.

[TeaLeaf]

So GE plays 'close the med' (involving Gibraltar and all).

What really helped the allies last game I played:
RU stacked the 'common border' with GE. This put such a heavy pressure on GE garrison requirements, they had to weaken their effort to close the med.
Whether Ge made a calculation error or not, I felt GE was already operating at or even under the bare minimum unit requirements to try to close the med and still they needed substantially more garrison against RU (even without including the option that eases breaking the Nazi-Soviet Pact).
So, J/F RU DOWed Germany and liberated Poland during '41. GE had to stop their 'med-offensives' and prevent further damage by relocating much of their land and air forces to East Germany. GE then pushed Russia back east a rough 900km (8 to 10 hexes), and then '43 saw much of a stalemate between GE and RU (even though Stalin played 2 OC to try to push west), but '44 saw Russia break through spectacularly.
I feel that if Germany'd had adequate garrison value against Russia, their offensive in the med was doomed anyway for lack of units. Would they been better off going for a '42 barbarossa, directly after Gibraltar was taken (forgetting completely about Suez)??

Japan targeted China and the CW, so Russia could leave only a few lonely garrisons in Vladiwostok, but my guess is RU could have done the same if Japan did target Vladiwostok and the rest of the Far East. Russia does not loose too much on that front and with a little allied help (just 3 to 4 resources per turn), this loss is countered.

[Dabrion]

Well that happens if you ignore Russia. I assume the German build plan was not tuned to the strategy as well.

[TeaLeaf]

I assume the German build plan was not tuned to the strategy as well.

I don't know, you tell me.
Germany planned to take Spain, Gibraltar, North Africa and the Middle East at least. Since the pesky RN and the RAF always cut axis supply to Africa and the ME (the Italian Navy cannot compete this on its own), German builds were tuned to combat the RAF and the RN, while at the same time maintain a high garrison value against Russia.
Like I said, maybe the Germans made a calculation error, but I felt that it didn't matter even if they did. They needed so much more garrison value it would always have been at the cost of the effectiveness in the med (read: supply line protection).
Building more than the usual NAVs (normally when I plan for Barb I build none), long range FTR, giving Italy more economical aid and being active with troops around the med (Gibraltar, Spain, etc.) DOES mean a drain from the optimal build up against Russia. Both in build plan as in physical presence in Poland. I think that is what German players just have to accept. But next time I 'll make sure Germany has enough garrison value first priority, and build units to fight the CW around the Med (particularly the RN and RAF) only second priority. See if it is enough. Lat time I had those priorities turned around (Germans and Italians built what they needed against the CW to get across the mediterranean seas) and used all leftover resources to build up garrison value)!

Anyway, I think the SU can do lots of things, and stuffing the common border with Germany seems to be one of those things [;)]!
If only to reduce the resources Germany can use for building units that are effective in Naval Warfare.

[jjdenver]

Interesting perspective Tealeaf. But I think if GE puts enough against RU they can eat them up in 42 if they catch RU at the border. So it's a gamble for RU to do this. I'm curious what GE had at the border that A) allowed garrison to be broken in 41 and B) let RU liberate Poland. I'm surprised SU had enough to liberate Poland in 41.

[TeaLeaf]

It starts ofc with judging German builds, actions and entry chit placements. Russia should be able to see what means a no '41 barb. TBH with Russia I am not afraid to be in the forward defense against a '42 German attack.
I am afraid of a '41 barb when in the forward defense, but as stated in the players' notes, Russia won that war, no, the ALLIES won the war with Russia caught in that position too, so we WiFfers should be able too. In case you have misjudged German intentions [;)].

Too long ago to remember what Germany had on the border, but it looks only logical to me that if Russia can do A), she has the strength to follow up with B).

I think Germany must have had around 20 units in Poland when Russia DOWed J/F. 10 units more and the DOW would have been prevented.
Lots of German air in Spain, land units also. No more Italian navy left. I remember a fierce battle for supply to the rock, mainly via the Med., but not excluding the Atlantic. Also remember Germany loosing about 6 land units (4 corps + 2 divisions) attacking Gibraltar, CW getting 70+ defense factors there.

Perhaps Germany overdid it in Spain [;)] and that's why Russia got this chance. But I do remember the CW + Spain set up quite the defensive lines in the mountains. I remeber the CW aided strongly in Spain, but cautiously. That is, requiring quite the dedication from Germany to overpower the defenses, but not putting up a real fight because of the German strong commitment. Spanish units were sacrificed so CW units escaped into and through Gibraltar.

So the question is if Germany (or Italy) could have put 10 more units in Poland and still fight for Spain/Gibraltar and hope to get all of North Africa/Middle East.
In all honestly I think they could have, but it certainly drains German strength that cannot be used against the CW.

[Dabrion]

RU can have around 40 garrison with the kitchen sink at the border in JF41. Pact will be at 1:1 ratio from JF41 (MA/41 in RaW8) on and GE should have a chit advantage. I would chalk this one up to GE being inexperience with build plans and the pact dynamics, this should have telegraphed long time before it happened.

[TeaLeaf]

M/A '41 I counted a RU garrison value (only units) of 62. I doubt Russia can have 40 in J/F and then 62 in M/A.
More likely RU can have >55 in J/F '41. In units, chits not counted. Chits included RU could get as far as 75.

Also found a J/A '40 save. What amazes me is that the common border between GE and RU had just 9 units. 5GE vs. 4RU (equal in garrison values).
So RU built up a garrison value of 75 from close to nothing, in 3 turns. I guess that was indeed unexpected by GE.

The point is not that Russia could DOW (that should indeed be a rarity), but that it is a substantial and continuous drain of German forces from where Germany wants them to be to where Russia forces them to be. RU will just keep on putting reinforcements there. If Germany and Italy fight the CW for the Middle East and Africa while RU fights Japan with a substantial commintment of units (just to name an alternative), I think Germany may well succeed in what it is doing...

[Dabrion]

So the German garrison was at 16 pts incl. chits? Wow.. that is harsh. Spain is hard to stop once you opened that box.. I guess they know what they are in for next time. Still jeopardising the RU garrison is a no-go.

If the save is from MA (the turn after DoW if I understand correctly) maybe you counted in the RES and MA41 reinforcements units? But at this level it doesn't really matter if the garrison was beat by two, three or four times the odds Point being that this is an Axis mistake by negligence.



p.s.: RU has 25 pts of garrison from setup and there are on average cumulative 90BP that can reach the table until JF41. Assuming an average of 3BP per garrison point (~ another 30 garrison pts) reaching 55 garrison seems to be a practical possibility. Considering at least a token defence in Chita, Murmansk, Sevastopol and Leningrad, HQs in the rear to reorg reserves and long range AC not in the common border; then the need to bring ~40 units into position over the course of 2 winters with combined land/rail move restrictions. I would still find 40ish to be a more realistic level for JF41.

[TeaLeaf]

Heh, no, it was not 16pts all included. I'm not sure what it was exactly because in M/A Germany had -perhaps- already lost units.
I counted 16 German units in total in Poland/East Prussia and another ~10units rushing in/reinforcements, that clearly had not been part of the calculation when breaking the pact.

Russia is also not that restricted by combined movement/rail restrictions, if you count in that their reinforcements in Odessa, Chisisnau and Cernauti count towards their garrison points without moving at all. But yeah, I agree Germany made a mistake here. Even more so because I played solitaire . I can't recall what I was thinking. Probably something like "this looks all right, let's not calculate it through any further. Takes too much time to do just math and nothing else, for a problem that looks to have solved itself already." I guess what happened surprised me from both Russian and German perspective. What you may call lulled into a false sense of security...

I still think Russia would do good to stuff the border, to prevent Germany from using their full might against the CW.
That is the grand strategy here, not the exploit of a tactical calculation error.

[paulderynck]

Stuffing the border can work in 41, especially when not using City Based Volunteers (which is a yet uncoded option in MWiF). If it fails, it fails spectacularly, and the stuff cannot be held in even early 42 so another problem it presents is falling back in good order with only Combined impulses and rain, storm or blizzard movement effects.

[Dabrion]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Stuffing the border can work in 41, especially when not using City Based Volunteers (which is a yet uncoded option in MWiF). If it fails, it fails spectacularly, and the stuff cannot be held in even early 42 so another problem it presents is falling back in good order with only Combined impulses and rain, storm or blizzard movement effects.

Agreed, this is the aspect that makes it into a gamble to deploy forward. As I tried to hint at, there is a range in this dynamic where removing units from the border would bust the garrison immediately, effectively tackling the whole army there.


Tealeaf: you don't have your numbers straight, so lets not talk numbers then

[TeaLeaf]

Stuffing the border in an effort to try to prevent GE from a DOW on the SU by '41 is quite something different from stuffing the border because GE is in tango with Spain and Gibraltar and obviously, has other plans than attacking the SU in '41. Let alone GE isn't even able (in the position) to launch such an attack.

The former situation I wouldn't advise, the latter definately! SU just needs to carefully judge the situation.
It's another discussion entirely but even in the former situation I don't consider it a done deal that GE kills the SU. Key lesson for RU if in forward defense in '41 (for whatever reason) is to make the most of it. RU pulled it off historically and we WiFfers can too (we can even practise this in the Barbarossa scenario). Do NOT try to fall back if this means you'll be caught with half your army forward and the other half in or on-the-way-to-the rearward defense.

Dabrion: We can talk numbers perfectly allright. Admitted, if I can bring myself to see the point.
Truth is, the 'numbers' do not matter here. GE simply should not allow RU to get a garrison ratio of 2:1. Clear, good point. Very true and agreed. In the forward attack position, RU forces GE to not use all the power it wants to against the CW. Next thing that happens is GE attacks RU in its forward position for a '42 barb, true, but I am not afraid of Adolf if that happens. I could still be afraid of his dice, because that is WiF still for you.

[brian brian]

There is a little more nuance to Soviet garrison totals than 3 BP / point. I would look at it more as 2.5 BP / point perhaps.

The Russians can prioritize builds based on garrison value and thus ease of moving in or out of the common border area. So the MTN unit at 4 BP is 2 BP / garrison point and 2 garrison point / 1 land move. MECH are also efficient in this manner, and ARM are also 2 points / 1 land move. GARR are the cheapest of course, but the hardest to move.

A traditional way the Russians can do it is to use war with Japan, by either's choice, to build out the MIL pool, which also makes maneuvering their army much easier. However a dynamic there is how long a war with Japan is expected to last, which can depend on Russo/Japan war rules in use.

And lastly, their air force can move in and out of the Pact area quite quickly. To really maximize garrison, the Russians can put a Pilot in every plane they start with and the majority of the air force can move in/out of the border in just 2 impulses. Their oldest planes won't be worth flying during war with Germany, but that is not the whole point of doing it.

I do agree that a solid Russian strategy is to build-up in Poland in 1941 if the Germans are fighting elsewhere. The Western Allies will be grateful. But that is a boring strategy and gamers frequently put a lowest priority on the most boring options.

[TeaLeaf]

I find it highly rewarding and exciting to see Adolf looking at the Polish border, sweating. Or maybe he has a pokerface, but I know better.

Note that there is a little of Uncle Joe's Bluff to be smelled here [;)].

[Dabrion]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

There is a little more nuance to Soviet garrison totals than 3 BP / point. I would look at it more as 2.5 BP / point perhaps.

The Russians can prioritize builds based on garrison value and thus ease of moving in or out of the common border area. So the MTN unit at 4 BP is 2 BP / garrison point and 2 garrison point / 1 land move. MECH are also efficient in this manner, and ARM are also 2 points / 1 land move. GARR are the cheapest of course, but the hardest to move.

There are only so many GAR(6)/MTN(1) to be build. For my build plan they are counter-balanced by AC, Guns and Divs ymmv. Putting pilots into those biplanes makes sense from a bp/gar point of view, but yea.. that is the aircraft version of one man has the rifle the next man has the bullets I guess.

ORIGINAL: brian brian
A traditional way the Russians can do it is to use war with Japan, by either's choice, to build out the MIL pool, which also makes maneuvering their army much easier. However a dynamic there is how long a war with Japan is expected to last, which can depend on Russo/Japan war rules in use.

That is true, one twist to it though: Assuming you are in a first Russo-Japan war where you build out all MIL and have a nice garrison based on them, there is the possibility for JP to end the war on one of the two compulsory peace conditions. That would render RU neutral and send all MIL to the reserve pool. It has a steep price (Manchuria in the worst case) that the Axis find to be a worthwhile sacrifice nonetheless.

(I understand the Russo-Japse compulsory peace is not coded in MWiF?).

ORIGINAL: TeaLeaf

I find it highly rewarding and exciting to see Adolf looking at the Polish border, sweating. Or maybe he has a pokerface, but I know better.

Note that there is a little of Uncle Joe's Bluff to be smelled here [;)].

fun fact: Emergency DOW JP (or worse IT) to be able to get a land impulse head start on the Wehrmacht is a great starter for the Franklin-Josef bromance..