Keep Russia neutral until attacked

[Icier]

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

Hi ARAGORN2123,

I've just posted a similar message over at the Steam forum for the game and thought I'd post it here as well.

One thing we've tried to include in game are specific triggers that would influence countries like the USSR to possibly enter the war early or to simply declare war due to non historical circumstances in game.

While historically Germany did declare war on the USSR in June of 1941, if the Axis player deviates from history then what we've done is to essentially try and take these new circumstances into account as best as we reasonably could.

For example an Axis Sealion combined with a lightly guarded Eastern Front may entice Stalin to enter the war to try and take advantage of an over extended Germany.

Also, if the Axis have not properly guarded their Eastern front/border with the USSR then this also increases Soviet interest in entering the war to possibly take advantage of the situation.

Typically at least 2 units within 10 hexes of Warsaw in 1940, and 4 units in 1941 will keep Stalin at bay, but of course not indefinitely. Having more than 18 units within 10 hexes of Warsaw will eventually increase Soviet war readiness as well. With in game messages enabled there will be periodic warnings to the Axis players if these particular conditions are not met in game.

All this being said, we can't say for sure what would have happened in these situations in real life, but without some sort of effort to counter balance non historical game play the game can quickly become skewed and this is especially important for Multiplayer games.

However, if you'd really like to disable these features in game for your single player adventures, this is easily doable in game via the OPTIONS->ADVANCED->SCRIPTS screen.

From there take a look at the Mobilization 1, 2, 3 and 4 EVENTS and in particular any that have to do with the USSR and you can disable these as desired.

Hope this helps,
Hubert

Sorry Hubert, but you are wrong, I have played 10 PBEM games as Germans & the Russians always declared for the Allies, usually
early 41 but every time in 41.....even though I have 4 divisions around Warsaw from 39.

[sPzAbt653]

Sorry Hubert, but you are wrong,

I am wondering what was wrong, you quoted everything that Hubert said, was everything he said wrong ? [&:]
I have seen Russia not enter until summer 1942.

[Icier]

I have had Russia declare war in Dec 41.

[Vichyssoise]

My (very short) experience:
In a few test games I did to fine tune my Barbarossa deployment (1939 campaign, intermediate), I had the Russia AI declare war on Germany a couple of times in June 1941. Once I had declared war on Portugal (upon getting Spain to join the Axis) and Yugoslavia to control the Balkans early. Another time, I'd played more conservatively but, on both occasions, I had plenty of units stationed close to the border for close to 6 months.
When I played more historically, and more importantly, managed my deployment in line with the 18 units requirement for a while before going all in, I caught Russia off guard as it happened in real life.

It made sense to me to have to pay some price for being too adventurous and straying away from history.

[Hubert Cater]

ORIGINAL: Icier

I have had Russia declare war in Dec 41.

Without knowing all the details of your game, as they would be critical in understanding the situation better, I would still say that this would be in line with the expected mechanisms we've put in place.

I've also edited my post above to provide (possibly) further clarification:

"If you play a historical game as the Axis, then typically at least 2 units within 10 hexes of Warsaw in 1940, and 4 units in 1941 will keep Stalin at bay allowing you to declare war in June 1941. But of course this would still not keep the Soviets out indefinitely and at some point if you have not declared war they will pursue the conflict themselves."

[ernieschwitz]

ORIGINAL: ARAGORN2123

I'm simply asking for historical accuracy. I have fervently studied WWII, with an emphasis on Germany/USSR, for 50+ years. Historically, Russia did not attack Germany and, as a result of my research, I am convinced that they never would have. Stalin hated Democracy and the West far more than he hated Germany. After all, Communism and Nazism are two peas from the same pod.

You being convinced that they would not have attacked Germany, is not the same as it being a historical fact that they would not. ...

[nnason]

All,
Historical accuracy would dictate strict orders of battle reinforcements, historical research, and thus historical results with Germany losing in May 45. Then Strat Cmd would not be a game just a recreation of history.

Due to some choices I made as Axis I have had the USA join in May of 41, 6 months early. Definitely not historical but reflecting my choices as Axis. (Boy was I surprised at that early entry.) But I applaud the designers that made this possible.

This game makes Allied and Axis non-historical choices fun and lets us do (perhaps unrealistic) what ifs. This what makes it a game and not a recreation. I for one am happy to play this game and hope that our community with good beta testing makes it a game that is balanced so that both sides have a chance to win with goofy but fun choices.

Enough soapbox. HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!

[Saint Ruth]

Well, there's historical reality and there's the game.

The game should be balanced, and having the option of delaying the entry of the USSR (or even the US) for an inordinate number of turns would drastically unbalance the game.

Then there's history.

A good book on the period is:
"Grand Delusion: Stalin and the German Invasion of Russia" by Gabriel Gorodetsky

Did the Russians make offensive plans against Germany? Yes, but that is not evidence that they intended to carry them out. Stalin wanted to avoid war (or delay it for as long as possible), and the book argues that he over played his hand and made an huge miscalculation (the "Grand Delusion" being Stalins).
The USSR would never have attacked in 41 due to its ongoing re-organisation, and even in 1942, it's hard to imagine that the USSR would wait until Germany was supreme in Europe, and the Wehrmacht was "unemployed" before launching an attack.

When Molotov was in Berlin in Nov 1940, Ribbentrop even offered Molotov the chance to join the Axis (in the middle of a British air-raid) and the proposal was that the USSR expanded southward, but Molotov consistently made demands about Finland (officially in the Soviet "sphere of influence" but was occupied by German troops (at Finnish invitation of course)), and about Bulgaria and Rumania, and after meeting with Molotov on the Nov 13, Hitler was exasperated with Soviet intransigence and after the meeting issued "Instruction No. 18" regarding invading the USSR.

So, historically, the USSR could have realistically joined the Axis (after the war, Stalin is meant to have said "with the germans we would have been invincible"), and perhaps WWII would have been the US-UK versus Germany, Japan, Italy and the USSR (perhaps the Yalta conference in a parallel universe would have had a different photo of the Big 4).

In the original HOI, the Soviets could join the Axis I recall. But for a game like this, I think it has to be as it is.

[nnason]

Hmm what if USSR joined the Axis and say Japan stayed neutral or joined the Allies? So many alternate histories. When SC3 does the entire world campaign maybe that could be an alternative.

[KorutZelva]

Stalin took extensive effort to conceal general mobilization by manipulating the laws setting the conscription age. That allowed Stalin to provide the expansive build-up of the Red Army. By enacting the universal military draft on 1 September 1939, and by changing the minimum age for joining the Red Army from 21 to 18, Stalin triggered a mechanism which achieved a dramatic increase in the military strength of the Red Army. This specific law on mobilization allowed the Red Army to increase its army of 1,871,600 men in 1939 to 5,081,000 in the spring of 1941 under secrecy to avoid alarming the rest of the world. The duration of service was 2 years. Either the Red Army had to enter a war by 1 September 1941 or the drafted soldiers would have to be released from service.

I don't think you mobilize 5 million people just for a trip in Finland and the Baltic states. I think the (very plausible) hypothesis Hubert and Bill used for the game was that left to their own device the USSR would have joined the war in fall 1941. Makes for a good game.

[DeriKuk]

I was trying a game where the human player controls only the USSR. All other powers are AI-controlled.

Can there - in this scenario - be diplomatic options for the USSR before going to war? ...even if those diplomatic options are limited.

[This is a request to the designers/developers]

[KorutZelva]

There kind of already is, in the form of decisions:

-Advance on Poland or not
-Treaty of Friendship or not
-Finland war or not
-Baltic State or not
-Bessarabia or not

[DeriKuk]

in the form of decisions

That is fine, but I meant having a button on the Diplomacy procedure ... like Poland has at the start.

As the game stands, Poland can declare war on all of the Baltic states and Finland, removing almost all of the USSR's diplomatic decisions. (It has the comical side-effect of bringing Italy into the war in 1939.)

It's my job as a consumer-playtester to break the game. [:)]

[KorutZelva]

That's more a Poland issue than a USSR issue. (aka Poland shouldn't be a major anyway. )

[Taxman66]

It has to be, because otherwise Poland MPP would be spent building UK units/research.
If possible Poland should have the capacity to DoW removed. I presume they already have 0 diplo chits (or maybe not... if they bought one it would only last 1-3 turns).

[KorutZelva]

Make it a French minor. Poland income is pretty low to start with, it's not gonna matter much.

[Saburo]

Hmm what if USSR joined the Axis and say Japan stayed neutral or joined the Allies?

This is already an option in the earlier Strategic Command Global Conflict It's called Alliance of Evil. And it is good fun! I highly recommend it. Every single title in this series has been awesome in my view and the gameplay is so much fun I don't think you'll mind that it's not as pretty as the latest version. Check it out and any $ you spend will probably be going towards building a new and better version of it if Hubert continues as he's done in the past. [:)]

[BillRunacre]

Interesting, but if an Allied Poland declares war on anyone then it only really benefits the Axis, so I don't think there being the option for Poland to do this is really open to abuse in a serious game.