tyronec (Axis) vs Grognard1812. Grognard welcome.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Once these fighters are well rested and only intercepting Russian Bombers coming in for Airbases the Russian casualties should rise. Unfortunately the Russians have so many of the old junk bombers to throw away. IMHO Morvael et al should just remove ~70-80% of these from the game and this whole problem would almost self correct itself.

[EwaldvonKleist]

This is just to get control back. Once control of the skies in the area you want it in is back in German hands then these missions will branch out.

There are a ton of other things that need to be done and understood which I don't have the time to get into. I'm already late to my pillow for some sleep.

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 11/27/2017 5:12:34 AM >

I didn't know that aircraft are shot by AA guns in a hex they cross/fly nearby, even if the hex attacked is somewhere else, this allows some interesting flak defense patterns. Thank you for this info!

If I get you right your set up is against aggressive soviet players. What are you doing if the soviet player is aggressive all the time in 1941 (he has enough level bombers to be so). If I understand you right this would result in the German air force being in permanent self defence mode, hardly flying any bombing or ground support missions, and leaving the front line units without fighter cover in many cases. For any mission flown by the fighters will leave them with their pants down.
The only way the Germans can survive in the air AND give a reasonable amount of ground support is by concentrating all air power on 1 or 2 fronts.


IMO this is way off how the air war in 1941 should look&that was the point I believe Dinglir tried to make in the "early air war" thread.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

This is just to get control back. Once control of the skies in the area you want it in is back in German hands then these missions will branch out.

There are a ton of other things that need to be done and understood which I don't have the time to get into. I'm already late to my pillow for some sleep.

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 11/27/2017 5:12:34 AM >

I didn't know that aircraft are shot by AA guns in a hex they cross/fly nearby, even if the hex attacked is somewhere else, this allows some interesting flak defense patterns. Thank you for this info!

If I get you right your set up is against aggressive soviet players. What are you doing if the soviet player is aggressive all the time in 1941 (he has enough level bombers to be so). If I understand you right this would result in the German air force being in permanent self defence mode, hardly flying any bombing or ground support missions, and leaving the front line units without fighter cover in many cases. For any mission flown by the fighters will leave them with their pants down.
The only way the Germans can survive in the air AND give a reasonable amount of ground support is by concentrating all air power on 1 or 2 fronts.


IMO this is way off how the air war in 1941 should look&that was the point I believe Dinglir tried to make in the "early air war" thread.

Item 1. On the Flak I have noticed fly over specific areas with flak causes casualties on many occasions. Set up a test bed so you can best try this out. For instance take the Russian bombers and fly over said flak to a destination that has no flak around it. You will notice that you will take flak casualties. It is random so you will have to run it a few times.

Item 2. Concentration in 2 fronts is what I do. (you fly where it "IS" needed & most of the time people abuse the airforce imho.

Item 3. The root of the problem is how many aircraft are given to the Soviet to play with. Plus in these two games the German players are behind the power curve in the Air war now. If they started turn one they would own the skies in two areas they want & would replicate history if that is what you are looking for. IMHO get rid of ~70-80% of old bombers and old fighter airplanes the Russians have.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

This is just to get control back. Once control of the skies in the area you want it in is back in German hands then these missions will branch out.

There are a ton of other things that need to be done and understood which I don't have the time to get into. I'm already late to my pillow for some sleep.

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 11/27/2017 5:12:34 AM >

I didn't know that aircraft are shot by AA guns in a hex they cross/fly nearby, even if the hex attacked is somewhere else, this allows some interesting flak defense patterns. Thank you for this info!

If I get you right your set up is against aggressive soviet players. What are you doing if the soviet player is aggressive all the time in 1941 (he has enough level bombers to be so). If I understand you right this would result in the German air force being in permanent self defence mode, hardly flying any bombing or ground support missions, and leaving the front line units without fighter cover in many cases. For any mission flown by the fighters will leave them with their pants down.
The only way the Germans can survive in the air AND give a reasonable amount of ground support is by concentrating all air power on 1 or 2 fronts.


IMO this is way off how the air war in 1941 should look&that was the point I believe Dinglir tried to make in the "early air war" thread.

Item 1. On the Flak I have noticed fly over specific areas with flak causes casualties on many occasions. Set up a test bed so you can best try this out. For instance take the Russian bombers and fly over said flak to a destination that has no flak around it. You will notice that you will take flak casualties. It is random so you will have to run it a few times.

Item 2. Concentration in 2 fronts is what I do. (you fly where it "IS" needed & most of the time people abuse the airforce imho.

Item 3. The root of the problem is how many aircraft are given to the Soviet to play with. Plus in these two games the German players are behind the power curve in the Air war now. If they started turn one they would own the skies in two areas they want & would replicate history if that is what you are looking for. IMHO get rid of ~70-80% of old bombers and old fighter airplanes the Russians have.

Of course I can be wrong in all of this and everyone else is correct. But I have had good results doing what I have done with the airforce and it isn't regulated to boredom either as people are getting that impression.

[Telemecus]

Item 1. On the Flak I have noticed fly over specific areas with flak causes casualties on many occasions. Set up a test bed so you can best try this out. For instance take the Russian bombers and fly over said flak to a destination that has no flak around it. You will notice that you will take flak casualties. It is random so you will have to run it a few times.

A word of caution is needed over how the test is set up. Almost all units do have organic flak in their ToEs, so even if there are no flak SUs there will still be flak in the battle. So ground bombing cannot be used for instance. And flak does operate at a target a number of hexes from its base unit. So it is actually very difficult to find any bombing target on the map which is not covered by flak in some way.

In real life anti aircraft defences often comprised of interception, barrage balloon and flak zones on the route to the target. So WitE, as described in the manual, is flawed by only considering air missions as resolved at the target. If this observation is correct it would be welcomed and should be documented!

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist


IMO this is way off how the air war in 1941 should look&that was the point I believe Dinglir tried to make in the "early air war" thread.

There are going to be a ton of reasons this isn't going to replicate history #1 of which the total concentration of airpower on a narrow front. This would have never happened in real life but happens in the game. There should be front requirements to keeps a certain amount of aircraft in specific places. Otherwise we have a mass of aircraft duking it out on a small area of the map. So even after the changes that come through happen the game will still be in the same place if either the number of bombers the Soviets have extra is addressed OR constraints are put in to force specific garrison requirements per front of aircraft not to exceed a certain number. But that is just how I'm seeing it.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

Item 1. On the Flak I have noticed fly over specific areas with flak causes casualties on many occasions. Set up a test bed so you can best try this out. For instance take the Russian bombers and fly over said flak to a destination that has no flak around it. You will notice that you will take flak casualties. It is random so you will have to run it a few times.

A word of caution is needed over how the test is set up. Almost all units do have organic flak in their ToEs, so even if there are no flak SUs there will still be flak in the battle. So ground bombing cannot be used for instance. And flak does operate at a target a number of hexes from its base unit. So it is actually very difficult to find any bombing target on the map which is not covered by flak in some way.

In real life anti aircraft defences often comprised of interception, barrage balloon and flak zones on the route to the target. So WitE, as described in the manual, is flawed by only considering air missions as resolved at the target. If this observation is correct it would be welcomed and should be documented!

I should have saved my Soviet turn that happened awhile back. I had bombers fly from an area north of Moscow to bomb a Infantry regiment south of Tula. The Regiment was with other infantry regiments in the 5 hex radius around the unit I'm bombing. I think there was an infantry division close too. There were over 100 AA guns shooting at these planes that went to bomb that regiment. So when I looked at the path these planes too and it had gone over German Armor Motorized Divisions. I then bombed them and got like numbers. That was my last instance of this. So you can be 100% correct Telemecus that it is nothing but inherent AA. But I found it to be some very interesting things that is happening. So maybe Morvael or others can confirm or deny this is happening.

[EwaldvonKleist]

Item 2. Concentration in 2 fronts is what I do. (you fly where it "IS" needed & most of the time people abuse the airforce imho.

I am pretty much on line with you that in this case you can deliver ground support and preserve your fighter arm. My understanding always has been that you were talking about a 3 front air force deployment, if I set all the variables on "2 front deployment" I agree with most of your statements.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

Item 2. Concentration in 2 fronts is what I do. (you fly where it "IS" needed & most of the time people abuse the airforce imho.

I am pretty much on line with you that in this case you can deliver ground support and preserve your fighter arm. My understanding always has been that you were talking about a 3 front air force deployment, if I set all the variables on "2 front deployment" I agree with most of your statements.

I'm always learning myself and by all means the way I do things is not perfect by any stretch. There are lots of people on this forum a great deal wiser than me & I make mistakes looking for a better way of doing things. (All this talk on German Air Force is making me SOOOO want to play Germany again..... must resist the temptation....)

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
must resist the temptation....)

Deploy the needles!

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
must resist the temptation....)

Deploy the needles!

I so want to but just can't at the moment Im inundated with trials and tribulations at work until at least mid Dec.

[tyronec]

@HardLuck: Item 1. On the Flak I have noticed fly over specific areas with flak causes casualties on many occasions. Set up a test bed so you can best try this out. For instance take the Russian bombers and fly over said flak to a destination that has no flak around it. You will notice that you will take flak casualties. It is random so you will have to run it a few times.

I set up a test bed where a batch of infantry was bombed:
a. flying over a couple of Pz armies.
b. flying over infantry only.
The result was:
a. stacks light and some heavy AA. About 15 planes lost per mission.
b. no AA

@EvK: I am pretty much on line with you that in this case you can deliver ground support and preserve your fighter arm. My understanding always has been that you were talking about a 3 front air force deployment, if I set all the variables on "2 front deployment" I agree with most of your statements.

I don't follow the logic of this, if the Luftwaffe only deploy on two fronts then STAVKA can mass their air force on the same two fronts and the balance of air power is much the same. What the Luftwaffe can do more easily is shift between fronts from turn to turn, but that a different tactic.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: tyronec

@HardLuck: Item 1. On the Flak I have noticed fly over specific areas with flak causes casualties on many occasions. Set up a test bed so you can best try this out. For instance take the Russian bombers and fly over said flak to a destination that has no flak around it. You will notice that you will take flak casualties. It is random so you will have to run it a few times.

I set up a test bed where a batch of infantry was bombed:
a. flying over a couple of Pz armies.
b. flying over infantry only.
The result was:
a. stacks light and some heavy AA. About 15 planes lost per mission.
b. no AA

Thank you Sir.

The PZ and infantry had flak attached or attached to the HQ's in QTY, correct?

[tyronec]

It was T1 of the campaign, would say most of the AA was integral to armor divisions but some was probably HQ SUs.
The infantry bombed had no AA.

[Sammy5IsAlive]

ORIGINAL: Grognard1812

Agreed, I am following an unusual strategy. But I feel this is the best way to win as Soviet when playing against
a capable experienced Axis player.

As we are playing the 'Sudden Death' campaign scenario I can't just keep retreating to the Urals, because as soon
as Tyronec reaches 260 victory points he immediately wins a decisive Axis victory.

Just a word of warning if you are planning on running the war on a 'knife edge' of Axis auto victory early on before coming on really strong through late 43 onwards. Under the Sudden Death rules there is a check at April 42 where Axis win if their VPs are > 242 and at April 44 if their VPs are > 210 (I'm assuming these numbers have not changed from the original 'Lost Battles' manual?).

So it seems to me that a) you need to beware a 'blitz' in the March snow turns from an Axis army that is stronger than normal coming out of the blizzard (having taken less losses to begin with and also having more space to trade to avoid losses in the blizzard turns) and b) ensure that you are in a position to make decent progress in 1943 rather than simply waiting for the Axis army to collapse in 44/45. What does getting the Axis under 210 VPs equate to? I've not done any VP counting myself.

[tyronec]

T10.
AGN. STAVKA has broken one of the pockets so that need to be resealed. Will push north to threaten the railway line and East (there seems to be no defence East of the pockets) to attack Moscow from the North. Am still not sure what to do about Leningrad but will use some troops to work up the shore of Lake Lagoda.

AGC. Priority is to get my infantry across the Moskva to threaten Moscow from the south. The armour can pull back from the front line and be ready for action next turn.

AGS. The Soviets retreat from Stalino. There are 4 divisions left behind so will seal them off, also 25 Armaments and 11 HI. Have not been keeping track of industry so don't know how the Soviets are doing. Moscow was evacuated last turn.
Otherwise will just continue to advance.

Air War. Grognard has done some heavy bombing, getting 64 (nearly all fighters) for 480 (mostly good bombers) despite my airbases being mostly out of range. Most of the damage was done with a few night bombing raids with 109s falling out of the sky. Will reset my defences for next turn.

[tyronec]

AGN.
Leningrad - we switch to assaulting the river, and succeed on the second attack but have no unit to occupy the hex.
We make some advance towards the Finns to the east and seal off the pocket. STAVKA may just be able to reopen it but am not too concerned.

[tyronec]

AGC.
North of the city we attack with 9th Army (the green one) and get across the canal.
South, 4th Army (blue) storm the Mosvka and do a second deliberate attack to clear two hexes, a couple of Panzer divisions follow up. Have used almost no armour this turn so am well set up for T11.

[tyronec]

AGS.
Seal off the pocket and we are the gates of Rostov. Also manage to get across the river to the North East to help the attack next turn. I expect Soviet cavalry will infiltrate somewhere but there are just not enough motorised units available to fill all the gaps.
6th Army takes Belogrod and Kharkov, they are all around 250 miles from the railhead and fatigued with all the marching without provisions, good training for when they get cut off in Stalingrad next year.

Air war. We do some bombing outside soviet fighter cover to support the ground war, otherwise all rest. 109s set to day only, 110s set to night only.

Had some good luck with critical attacks this turn which helped, certainly didn't expect to get across both rivers near Moscow with so many units.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: tyronec

AGC.
North of the city we attack with 9th Army (the green one) and get across the canal.
South, 4th Army (blue) storm the Mosvka and do a second deliberate attack to clear two hexes, a couple of Panzer divisions follow up. Have used almost no armour this turn so am well set up for T11.

I don't know if you are not intentionally flying ground support or if you are out of range. But it does help support what I said that the Germans can win battles without air support in early 41. Germans have excellent leaders & the Soviets have catastrophic units with Experience and morale in the pits. With the combination of these two items (along with fatigue for the 3rd) the Germans can push pretty much any hex back that isn't well fortified or well led from the Soviet side. (remember Soviets take crazy loses until 1st Sept too)

Notice Soviets even flew ground support which brings up my 2nd item. With the Soviets flying ground support the Germans have rested their planes at least from what I see in the snap shots. Either this was done intentionally or the planes were just out of range to provide ground support. So now we wait for the Soviet phase of the Air War to see the outcome.

With results favorable to the Germans from the Soviet Air phase an advantage can be pushed to continue the downward spiral of the Soviet Airforce but in a controlled manner keeping an eye on fatigue and supply. I have always found that slow and steady attacks over multiple turns(not the 10+ CAP/Airfield bombing missions in a turn) provides better results because it maintains the integrity of the fighters.

But again I could be wrong with all of this and the Soviet Airforce is just too much for the Germans.

To be honest I like Telemecus bombing campaign and think I'm going to steal that to use in my next German game. I'm so waiting for his writeup!!!!!! (hurry it up already).