Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues

[Dreamslayer]

I guess additional cost of AP(+ around 40 AP) when appointing Soviet General-Leitenant for Front/M.D. Command need to be removed.

First of all, appointing GL for these HQ was usual practice, it was not something extraordinary.
For example, if look at commanders of 16 pre-war Military Districts + 1 Far East Front (lets even look before some changes during
15-30 June, Like commander of Odessa M.D. forming 9th Army and became its commander) we can see:
3 GA - Moscow M.D., Far East Front,Western M.D.
3 GP - Baltic M.D.,Kiev M.D.,Odessa M.D.
1 GM - Cental-Asian M.D.
and 10 GL commanding in others M.D.

After restoration the general-ranks in the 1940 RKKA has not so many high-ranked generals.

On the 22 June there was only 5 Marshals:
Voroshilov and Budyonny - "old-school"-generals
Kulik - Deputy of People's Commissar of Defense, artillery general
Timoshenko - People's Commissar of Defense (Narkom Oborony)
Shaposhnikov - Deputy of People's Commissar of Defense

5 Generals of Armii:
Zhukov - Chief of the General Staff
Apanasenko - Commander of the Far East Front
Pavlov - Commander of the Western M.D.
Tyulenev - Commander of the Moscow M.D.
Meretskov - Deputy of People's Commissar of Defense ,arrested 23 Jun 1941

4 General-Polkovniks:
Kirponos - Commander of the Kiev M.D.
F.Kuznetsov - Commander of the Baltic M.D.
Cherevichenko - Commander of the Odessa M.D.
Gorodovikov - also "old-school"-general, chief of the cavalry inspection

plus 2 more GP of artillery
plus 2 more GP under arrest,both was executed in Oct 1941

So, appointing GL for M.D. or Front Command it was usual thing.

Some examples about Fronts in 1941:
Karelian Front - V.Frolov(GL)
Leningrad Front - Khozin(GL)
NW Front - Sobennikov(GM) ,Kurochkin(GL)
Southern Front - Ryabyshev(GL),Malinovsky(GL)

[56ajax]

The Curious Case of the 65th (LXV) Rifle Corps.

Both Glantz and Askey reference it as being a Corps HQ in the Baltic Military District as of 22/06/1941 but I cannot find any assigned Divisions or Support Units.

As far as I can gather the first commander was N.M Shestopalov (KIA 27/06/1941) who took command in 07/1940 and was re assigned on 11/03/1941 to the 12th Mech Corps. The 65th HQ was then commanded by K.V. Komissarov (KIA 02/03/1942) until 29/08/1941.

12th Mech Corps

In the game it is led by I Koronikov but he did not take command until 14/07/1941. As per above it was commanded by Shestopalov who was KIA on the 27/06/41, probably in the counter attack against 16th Pz Corp.

Would like some confirmation on the above.

(Thanks to Dreamslayer for the initial analysis).

[56ajax]

2nd Cav Corps

In the game it is commanded by Pavel M Belov but the actual commander was Pavel A Belov. The former was in Artillery and the latter in Cavalry. Game picture is for Pavel M Belov.

[Denniss]

I did most of the suggested changes except Shestopalov who does not exist in Leader DB

[Dreamslayer]

ORIGINAL: johntoml56

The Curious Case of the 65th (LXV) Rifle Corps.

Both Glantz and Askey reference it as being a Corps HQ in the Baltic Military District as of 22/06/1941 but I cannot find any assigned Divisions or Support Units.

As far as I can gather the first commander was N.M Shestopalov (KIA 27/06/1941) who took command in 07/1940 and was re assigned on 11/03/1941 to the 12th Mech Corps. The 65th HQ was then commanded by K.V. Komissarov (KIA 02/03/1942) until 29/08/1941.

12th Mech Corps

In the game it is led by I Koronikov but he did not take command until 14/07/1941. As per above it was commanded by Shestopalov who was KIA on the 27/06/41, probably in the counter attack against 16th Pz Corp.

Would like some confirmation on the above.

Nikolay Shestopalov(GM)
From June 1940 - commander of the 65th Rifle corps
On 11 March,1941 - commander of the 12th Mech corps
On 27 June,1941 he was wounded,was taken prisoner(not sure how is it more correct phrase)and died because of wounds.

Korovnikov
On March 1941 - deputy of the commander of 2nd Tank division(3rd Mech corps)
On July 1941 - deputy of the commander of 12th Mech corps

[Dreamslayer]

A few corrections of locations for Baltic M.D.'s HQs on 21/22 June:

Baltic M.D. - Panevezys
27 A - Riga
8 A - Siauliai

[56ajax]

ORIGINAL: Denniss

I did most of the suggested changes except Shestopalov who does not exist in Leader DB

Thanks. [:)]

[56ajax]

Ist Rifle Corps

In the game it is commanded by Batsanov but he did not take up this appointment until 19/08/1941. F. D. Rubtsov was Corp Commander from 27/04/1940 to 06/07/1941.

66th Rifle Corp

In the game commanded by Rubtsov but the actual commander was F Sudakov (not in the game?) from 19/06/1941 to 04/07/1941

(All 3 generals were KIA early in the war.)

Thanks to Dreamslayer for initial analysis.

[56ajax]

3rd Airborne Corps Location 22/06/1941

In the game it is located adjacent to Odessa but the HQ, 5th and 6th Airborne Brigades appear to have been located at Pervomaysk (81/98) whilst the 212th was at Voznesensk (83/101)

(Askey - 5th and 6th newly formed, only the 212th was parachute trained, and all 3 had never trained as a combined unit. Kept well out of harms way for the first 2 weeks of the war).

Thanks to Dreamslayer for assistance.

[56ajax]

57th Separate Sapper (Red Banner) Battalion.

So far the only reference I have found is in the Russian WIKI. Attached to the Ist Rifle Corp, translation as follows :

On June 22, 1941, he was stationed in the village of Dziki near Bialystok .

As part of the army from June 22, 1941 to July 6, 1942.

June 22, 1941 managed to take positions in the Osovetsk fortified area near the village of Popki and until 12:00, used as a conventional infantry, restrained the enemy's attacks. By 19:00 the same day he went to the forest of Rogenica Velky. On the night of June 23, 1941, was withdrawn from the positions and transferred to the restoration of the destroyed crossings over the river Bobr near Vizny , where the headquarters of the corps was located. [1] On June 23, 1941, on the battalion's site, the enemy broke through to his positions and the sappers again held the enemy for several hours. [2]

Destroyed at the end of June 1941, surrounded by Bialystok .

July 6, 1941 disbanded.

Can anyone else find a reference?

[Dreamslayer]

Looks like many of those separate sapper batallions of the Rifle corps HQs are missed in the game or have incorrect number.

E.g. from my quick search for 1-10 corps:

Rifle corps # - actual sapper btn # (in the game)

1 - 57(-)
2 - 5(-)
3 - 11(3)
4 - 127(-)
5 - 49(-)
6 - 18(-)
7 - 8(7)
8 - 6(-)
9 - 19(9)
10 - 80(-)

[56ajax]

12.7mm AAMGs

Askey states that in the entire Soviet Unit, on 22/06/41 there were about 2,200 of these guns available. In the game there are about 3,500 on this date.

It is also stated that a rifle division would rarely have more than 50% of its TOE for this weapon.

For example, the Leningrad Military District had about 150 of these weapons and if 125 were in the 2nd PVO AAMG Regiment and the 7th PVO AAMG battalion then that leaves about 25 for the Rifle Divisions.

Note PVO AAMG units are not in the game

fyi

[56ajax]

AA Battalions (Army)

Apparently there were 44 Army AA battalions on 22 June 1941. Each battalion had 3 batterys (or companys) of 4 medium AA guns for a total of 12.

TOE in the game is 12 medium AA guns and 3 AAMG but Askey has a TOE of 12 medium, 2 AAMG and 3 QUAD MMG.

fyi

[Great_Ajax]

Just a note here that Askey has heavily influenced a massive revision of WitE 2 TOEs. One huge lesson that I constantly see is that published TOEs are not always followed and there are always numerous examples where they are not explicitly followed in the field.

Trey

ORIGINAL: johntoml56

AA Battalions (Army)

Apparently there were 44 Army AA battalions on 22 June 1941. Each battalion had 3 batterys (or companys) of 4 medium AA guns for a total of 12.

TOE in the game is 12 medium AA guns and 3 AAMG but Askey has a TOE of 12 medium, 2 AAMG and 3 QUAD MMG.

fyi

[Dreamslayer]

37th Rifle corps.

In the game data commanded by Efim Zybin.
From 28 April 1939 he was commander of the 36th Cavalry division. 22 August,1941 was captured by Germans in Minsk region.In captivity he was cooperated with the Germans.May 4, 1945 Zybin was released by the Americans. Through the Soviet military mission for repatriation in Paris, he was sent to Moscow. On 25 August,1946 executed.

Correct leader for this HQ is Semyon Zybin.
From 14 March,1941 he was commander of the 37th Rifle corps. MIA in August 1941 around Uman.
GM(1941).

In the game data leader of the 37th Rifle corps have very low stats 3-3-3-3-2-3, I guess it because "nice" story about Efim Zybin, but imho Semyon do not deserve this. I hope he can get something around 4-4-3-4-2-4.

[Dreamslayer]

28th Army.
In the game data commanded by Vasily Kachalov.
Correct name is Vladimir Kachalov.

[56ajax]

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

28th Army.
In the game data commanded by Vasily Kachalov.
Correct name is Vladimir Kachalov.

Various Wikis give it as Vladimir but the Generals database gives it as Vasily. I vote for Vlad.

Vlad Kachalov was head of the Arkhangel Military District and took immediate command of the 28th Army. KIA apparently by artillery fire on 04/08/1941

[56ajax]

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

37th Rifle corps.

In the game data commanded by Efim Zybin.
From 28 April 1939 he was commander of the 36th Cavalry division. 22 August,1941 was captured by Germans in Minsk region.In captivity he was cooperated with the Germans.May 4, 1945 Zybin was released by the Americans. Through the Soviet military mission for repatriation in Paris, he was sent to Moscow. On 25 August,1946 executed.

Correct leader for this HQ is Semyon Zybin.
From 14 March,1941 he was commander of the 37th Rifle corps. MIA in August 1941 around Uman.
GM(1941).

In the game data leader of the 37th Rifle corps have very low stats 3-3-3-3-2-3, I guess it because "nice" story about Efim Zybin, but imho Semyon do not deserve this. I hope he can get something around 4-4-3-4-2-4.

Yes, we have the wrong Zybin in the game. Photo is for Efim.

[Dreamslayer]

Engineer support units in the Mech corps.

Currently they are presented by separate sapper batallions. But actually they has other TOE and name.
The "standart" structure of the Mech corps has one Separate motorized engineer batallion.

TOE(Shtat) for peacetime(Shtat #10/22) has total 410 men, 29x DP LMG, 20 trucks and various special equipment.
TOE(Shtat) for wartime(Shtat #010/22) has total 664 men, 38x DP LMG, 43 trucks and various special equipment. Structure changes: +1 more engineer company, -1 School of junior commanders.

With disbanding Mech corps HQs during 1941 their support units such as Separate motorized engineer batallions was disbanded at the same time or even early.

In the game data Mech corps has sapper battalions same as in the Rifle corps. They also have "random" numbers.

Some corrections :
Mech corps # / actual moto-engineer btn,if have non-standart name I'll type it(in the game)

1 - 50th sep.engineer btn (201th sapper btn) - At start of war was on task of Leningrad M.D. , not in the corps
2 - 49th
3 - 46th
4 - 48th
5 - 55th sep.road btn - Because this unit have non-standart name can be skipped in the game
6 - 41th
7 - 42th
8 - 45th
9 - 2nd (209th sapper btn)
10 - 34th (210th sapper btn)
11 - 64th
12 - 47th
13 - 77th
14 - 67th
15 - 65th
16 - 78th
17 - 80th
18 - 68th
19 - 86th
20 - 83th
21 - 59th
22 - 89th
23 - 82th (223th sapper btn)
24 - 81th (224th sapper btn)
25 - 60th
26 - 88th (321th sapper btn)
27 - 84th
28 - 61th (228th sapper btn)

[Denniss]

Interesting, will look into it.
Do you have some data for rocket units, especially the heavy brigades with static launchers (also divs). 1944 organization would be interesting as the launchers with four M30 or M31 were supposed to receive an upgrade to double-stacked launchers with 8x M31 each.