2by3+ Team Game (Axis Legacy Thread)
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KenchiSulla
- Posts: 2963
- Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:19 pm
- Location: the Netherlands
RE: Axis - 2by3+ Person Team Game
If they would be in AGS I would be able to arrange freely right? Or?
AKA Cannonfodder
"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor
"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor
RE: Axis - 2by3+ Person Team Game
ORIGINAL: KenchiSulla
If they would be in AGS I would be able to arrange freely right? Or?
Absolutely. I could say in allocations you have x, which happens to be in OKH HQ at the moment. But I could just assign them at the end of every turn so they are in AGS HQ at the start of every turn for you to assign as you wish - is this what you mean? Also if AGS HQ is kept on rails the supply situation would be no different from if they were in OKH. Placement of the AGS HQ is going to be important to prioritise auto rail repair for a bypass round Rumania at the start. But both things can be accomplished at the same time.
However remember then that you cannot assign SUs "from" HQs, as they will choose any in that class in OKH first. If you want to use only the ones in AGS HQ you have to go to AGS HQ, go to the details of the individual SU you want and assign it "to" the HQ you want it to be in. Not all corps HQs are available for assignment that way from AGS HQ. If that is a hassle you may just find it easier to leave them in the OKH HQ? let me know your preference.
Wargamers Discord https://discord.gg/U6DcDxT
RE: Axis - 2by3+ Person Team Game
ORIGINAL: Telemecus
Turn 1 Centre
am afraid does not good; you might lost ukrania and we know that the AI does not counterattak from ukrania if not you wiill also losse BERLIN
Epsilon Eridani
RE: Axis - 2by3+ Person Team Game
ORIGINAL: Zecke
ORIGINAL: Telemecus
Turn 1 Centre
am afraid does not good; you might lost ukrania and we know that the AI does not counterattak from ukrania if not you wiill also losse BERLIN
We are going to lose Berlin someday .. [8D] the National Morale deterioration is one driving factor as an example .. but . Right now the focus for ST is getting to Moscow.
In my biased opinion I think this is a pretty good start. We are on Turn 6 right now and the evolving picture will show a sudden realization of strategy .. see the 2x3 open thread with news of Slominsk in serious peril [;)][X(]
"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"
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SparkleyTits
- Posts: 904
- Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2016 7:15 pm
- Location: England
RE: Axis - 2by3+ Person Team Game
Sorry Zecke could you clarify what you mean for me please I don't understand bud?
Cheers!
Cheers!
RE: Axis - 2by3+ Person Team Game
ORIGINAL: Crackaces
ORIGINAL: Zecke
ORIGINAL: Telemecus
Turn 1 Centre
am afraid does not good; you might lost ukrania and we know that the AI does not counterattak from ukrania if not you wiill also losse BERLIN
We are going to lose Berlin someday .. [8D] the National Morale deterioration is one driving factor as an example .. but . Right now the focus for ST is getting to Moscow.
In my biased opinion I think this is a pretty good start. We are on Turn 6 right now and the evolving picture will show a sudden realization of strategy .. see the 2x3 open thread with news of Slominsk in serious peril [;)][X(]
Also, I think it is very important to realize and not shown very well in this picture .. ST is executing Turn 1 without the 7th and 20th PzXX’s which are assigned to AGN. Although AGC’s opening is very strong it could have been even stronger with a those resources. The 7th and 20th are in the South part of the forward line .. they do the 4th Army thing (redirection of 4th Army) and move turns 2-3 North in a completely different line of attack.
Given that I am very sure ST could have put those divisions to better use .. as it is we are threatening Leningrad by crossing the Luga turn 6 ..and the 7th and 20th are primed for the big push!
"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"
RE: Axis - 2by3+ Person Team Game
I think it is worth mentioning that the German's have 53 divisions or an Army Group in itself of Support Units. As Telemecus would say .."These take lorries .." (Trucks for us Americans). Also, I have come to discover in this game that some SU's are critical for certain missions, but are attached where they are not advantageous. Other SU's are ubiquitous - more of these available than can reasonability fit in units. The first turn was spent "moving" this units to a central location -- OKH.
There are two possibilities. Pull SU's from higher HQ in the chain. This is free of AP costs. This does not work if a flamm panzer needed for Leningrad is attached to a Panzer XX in AGC. Since the command chain ends at OKH this is a good place to start the logistic supply chain of SU's. The problem is 53 divisions worth of stuff in one unit.
The other possibility is to assign, or push a SU using the same process of reassigning a unit. Click on the SU, and then click on the current assignment to bring up a list of possible assignments tat for 1 AP the SU will magically transfer.
Something that working with an experienced supreme commander has really helped me understand is the concept of HQ support and "Locked". If a German division for example pulls SU's (up to three) these SU's will follow along as assigned consuming "lorries" (unless self-propelled). After the SU performs its function one might want to send the SU up the chain. Clicking the 'X' moves the SU up. This is not so clear to me but I THINK If the higher HQ is locked the SU will eventually find its way up to OKH. That is unless the HQ unit support level has been increased and then one of each type up to the support level will stay with that HQ, unless specifically detached or assigned elsewhere.
This is worth mentioning in a MP game because the management of SU's once attached to a command affects the other commands. A "Hvy Howitizer Bn" seemed like a really good thing for the AGN to attach to I corps for the next steps of uprooting Soviets in forts .. the Heavy Howitzer is a siege cannon that might have been better used say for [elsewhere [8D] ]? That mistake will cost 1 AP to rectify this turn or 4 turns for the unit to make its way to OKH, or kept in AGN command at a cost of lorries .. Then there is the tracking of a lot of SU's some I have mentioned have very special purposes that are buried in the command structure ..
There are two possibilities. Pull SU's from higher HQ in the chain. This is free of AP costs. This does not work if a flamm panzer needed for Leningrad is attached to a Panzer XX in AGC. Since the command chain ends at OKH this is a good place to start the logistic supply chain of SU's. The problem is 53 divisions worth of stuff in one unit.
The other possibility is to assign, or push a SU using the same process of reassigning a unit. Click on the SU, and then click on the current assignment to bring up a list of possible assignments tat for 1 AP the SU will magically transfer.
Something that working with an experienced supreme commander has really helped me understand is the concept of HQ support and "Locked". If a German division for example pulls SU's (up to three) these SU's will follow along as assigned consuming "lorries" (unless self-propelled). After the SU performs its function one might want to send the SU up the chain. Clicking the 'X' moves the SU up. This is not so clear to me but I THINK If the higher HQ is locked the SU will eventually find its way up to OKH. That is unless the HQ unit support level has been increased and then one of each type up to the support level will stay with that HQ, unless specifically detached or assigned elsewhere.
This is worth mentioning in a MP game because the management of SU's once attached to a command affects the other commands. A "Hvy Howitizer Bn" seemed like a really good thing for the AGN to attach to I corps for the next steps of uprooting Soviets in forts .. the Heavy Howitzer is a siege cannon that might have been better used say for [elsewhere [8D] ]? That mistake will cost 1 AP to rectify this turn or 4 turns for the unit to make its way to OKH, or kept in AGN command at a cost of lorries .. Then there is the tracking of a lot of SU's some I have mentioned have very special purposes that are buried in the command structure ..
"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"
RE: Axis - 2by3+ Person Team Game
It is worth distinguishing between those that are directly assigned and those that are in HQs - and also considering construction and pioneers separately.
There was a time when directly assigning an SU to a unit cost one point - now it is free if down the chain of command but costs one point to unassign it (which catches people out as it is not too well documented). So if you are going to spend a point unassigning the unit anyway (clicking the 'X') better to actually spend the point reassigning the unit to a higher command that is on rails (for logistics reasons).
For the same logistical reasons if you are not actually using the SUs I think it is a good idea to collect them in an HQ that is on rails - and for most German SUs that can be done for free by unlocking all the HQs, setting them to zero support, and seeing them drift up to OKH (and leaving OKH on rails). In my view you should never assign SUs at the start of your turn, only during the turn when you think you are just about to use them or the end of your turn for your opponents phase (which in the summer of 1941 for Axis should normally mean not at all)
The logistical costs of SUs are both the vehicles for their transport overland and their supply in the logistics phase. On the other hand their assignment or reassignment is like a magical teleportation act involving no logistical costs. So postponing assignment of SUs to an HQ until after that HQ has moved, or not at all if they are just going to sit there unused, is a huge vehicle saver. In this case you can look at the transport cost in the details of a higher command like OKH - when full of lots of SUs it can come to more than 100,000 which is the size of whole armies. Leaving them in OKH and not dragging them along with your frontline HQs has obvious benefits.
There have not been many updated guides for SU management. For example a very old post details how Flamms consume huge amounts of fuel and so will reduce the movement points of your motorised units if attached to their direct HQ or directly to the unit. Is this still the case? Are SUs most complementary with units of the opposite kind (e.g. Bicycle recon and MG battalions with Panzer divisions, StuGs with motor infantry etc.) for battle phasing reasons? Normally I lock lower level Axis HQs at the start of the game if they are likely to "suck down" construction units from army groups or OKH and only unlock them when enough of the construction units have gone onmap - is this the best way or will they eventually go back again anyway? Are the big super heavy artillery of the Axis necessarily one shot wonders - use them for Sevastopol and Leningrad but avoid their ever getting replacements, or can their arms point costs for replacements be worthwhile?
There was a time when directly assigning an SU to a unit cost one point - now it is free if down the chain of command but costs one point to unassign it (which catches people out as it is not too well documented). So if you are going to spend a point unassigning the unit anyway (clicking the 'X') better to actually spend the point reassigning the unit to a higher command that is on rails (for logistics reasons).
For the same logistical reasons if you are not actually using the SUs I think it is a good idea to collect them in an HQ that is on rails - and for most German SUs that can be done for free by unlocking all the HQs, setting them to zero support, and seeing them drift up to OKH (and leaving OKH on rails). In my view you should never assign SUs at the start of your turn, only during the turn when you think you are just about to use them or the end of your turn for your opponents phase (which in the summer of 1941 for Axis should normally mean not at all)
The logistical costs of SUs are both the vehicles for their transport overland and their supply in the logistics phase. On the other hand their assignment or reassignment is like a magical teleportation act involving no logistical costs. So postponing assignment of SUs to an HQ until after that HQ has moved, or not at all if they are just going to sit there unused, is a huge vehicle saver. In this case you can look at the transport cost in the details of a higher command like OKH - when full of lots of SUs it can come to more than 100,000 which is the size of whole armies. Leaving them in OKH and not dragging them along with your frontline HQs has obvious benefits.
There have not been many updated guides for SU management. For example a very old post details how Flamms consume huge amounts of fuel and so will reduce the movement points of your motorised units if attached to their direct HQ or directly to the unit. Is this still the case? Are SUs most complementary with units of the opposite kind (e.g. Bicycle recon and MG battalions with Panzer divisions, StuGs with motor infantry etc.) for battle phasing reasons? Normally I lock lower level Axis HQs at the start of the game if they are likely to "suck down" construction units from army groups or OKH and only unlock them when enough of the construction units have gone onmap - is this the best way or will they eventually go back again anyway? Are the big super heavy artillery of the Axis necessarily one shot wonders - use them for Sevastopol and Leningrad but avoid their ever getting replacements, or can their arms point costs for replacements be worthwhile?
Wargamers Discord https://discord.gg/U6DcDxT
RE: Axis - 2by3+ Person Team Game
Continuing the thoughts on SU management ..
The deduction on one point by clicking the [x] next to a SU you want to re-assign silently deducts one AP ..Think about manually reassigning the SU.
The other lesson for me thus far is that SU's and SU management are the main edge in combat resolution. Particularly understanding the concept of management is very important. I posted a question about ROF but it seems that ammo usage is a combination of supply, ammo, and ROF, then there are the needed trucks that is a part of transportation requirements. The management part is an economy of force. Attaching a 305mm siege howitzer to a HQ unit with units attacking a security division in clear terrain will simply use trucks, ammo, supplies, and fuel for an objective that could have been more economically addressed.
These decisions over time mean less trucks available, less ammo and supplies for units attacking more critical objectives.
The current mantra for the 2x3 team is JIT. Assign the SU's needed for the planned attacks and/or defense when you need them, not before.
The deduction on one point by clicking the [x] next to a SU you want to re-assign silently deducts one AP ..Think about manually reassigning the SU.
The other lesson for me thus far is that SU's and SU management are the main edge in combat resolution. Particularly understanding the concept of management is very important. I posted a question about ROF but it seems that ammo usage is a combination of supply, ammo, and ROF, then there are the needed trucks that is a part of transportation requirements. The management part is an economy of force. Attaching a 305mm siege howitzer to a HQ unit with units attacking a security division in clear terrain will simply use trucks, ammo, supplies, and fuel for an objective that could have been more economically addressed.
These decisions over time mean less trucks available, less ammo and supplies for units attacking more critical objectives.
The current mantra for the 2x3 team is JIT. Assign the SU's needed for the planned attacks and/or defense when you need them, not before.
"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"
RE: Axis - 2by3+ Person Team Game
We are now on turn 11 and the process of improving the team dynamics so that our turns are quick as well as good never ends. The last turn of the Axis team took only two days/one night to do. One innovation was to create a new initial recon go. With reconnaissance done other members can see the deployment of the enemy and spend more time when they do not have the file planning so they take less time when they have the file. But waiting for the Supreme Commander to do this as the first go was less efficient than allowing another commander to at least do some initial reconnaissance before the Supreme Commander takes the first go and as soon as the file returns from our opponents. So we have changed our team protocol.
Change of Team Protocol - Air Recon Commander and Go
A member of the team will be (in addition to any other roles they have) Air Recon Commander
For each area covered the Air Recon Commander CAN
- Move any recon air bases
- Air transfer any recon air groups FROM any base TO recon bases only (or any Finnish/Italian/Hungarian air base if using theirs) as needed
- Fly reconnaisance missions from those airbases only and as needed
- Do this in a go as soon as the turn arrives from the Soviet team including before Supreme Command has taken a go
The Air Recon Commander MUST
- First make any needed changes to Air Doctrine (some cannot be changed after air missions are flown)
- And also first switch any recon air groups they do not want to use to night missions
- Switch all fighter groups to nights before moving any airbases (so that they cannot be used for interception of interdiction)
- Before moving any airbase send to reserve any recon airgroups on it they think should be sent to reserve
- Not use recon escorts
SparkleyTits is now our Air Recon Commander and will be doing a go for initial air recon in their central sector and can agree to do this with North and South commanders too. It does not mean anyone cannot do their own reconnaissance as well or instead, that all reconnaissance air groups will be used in the initial air recon, or that air bases or air groups used in the initial recon cannot be further used and moved by others in their go.
Assigning air groups from national reserve at the end will continue to be exclusively for Supreme Command
It is envisioned that the initial air recon will mostly be shorter range recon air groups. Many recon air groups including heavier recon aircraft will remain unused until the following goes.
Change of Team Protocol - Air Recon Commander and Go
A member of the team will be (in addition to any other roles they have) Air Recon Commander
For each area covered the Air Recon Commander CAN
- Move any recon air bases
- Air transfer any recon air groups FROM any base TO recon bases only (or any Finnish/Italian/Hungarian air base if using theirs) as needed
- Fly reconnaisance missions from those airbases only and as needed
- Do this in a go as soon as the turn arrives from the Soviet team including before Supreme Command has taken a go
The Air Recon Commander MUST
- First make any needed changes to Air Doctrine (some cannot be changed after air missions are flown)
- And also first switch any recon air groups they do not want to use to night missions
- Switch all fighter groups to nights before moving any airbases (so that they cannot be used for interception of interdiction)
- Before moving any airbase send to reserve any recon airgroups on it they think should be sent to reserve
- Not use recon escorts
SparkleyTits is now our Air Recon Commander and will be doing a go for initial air recon in their central sector and can agree to do this with North and South commanders too. It does not mean anyone cannot do their own reconnaissance as well or instead, that all reconnaissance air groups will be used in the initial air recon, or that air bases or air groups used in the initial recon cannot be further used and moved by others in their go.
Assigning air groups from national reserve at the end will continue to be exclusively for Supreme Command
It is envisioned that the initial air recon will mostly be shorter range recon air groups. Many recon air groups including heavier recon aircraft will remain unused until the following goes.
Wargamers Discord https://discord.gg/U6DcDxT
RE: Axis - 2by3+ Person Team Game
The Axis team has agreed to allow the Soviet team to view this AAR thread - the ban on them being here is now lifted! [:)]
Wargamers Discord https://discord.gg/U6DcDxT