Directive 21: thread for questions - feel free to add yours

[jzardos]

I've done a few test and I can see t hat Combat Air Support is in Directive 21 is not as effective as one would expected in the reality of WW2 and the eastern front. I have considered all the factors of terrain, weather, defender posture, defender AA, defender air(if any), attacker aircraft type, and attacker air numbers. Combat Air Support (one sided), which frequently was decisive in a battle on the eastern front has been relegated as almost a non-factor in Directive 21. I'll try and put something together to show my findings. In the meantime, go ahead and make some pure air attacks on units (was testing as attacker being German) and you can see for yourself that the loses on both sides just are not what you'd expect.

So far (turn 10), other than this issue I have with air power, I find this scenario to be fantastic and appreciate what must have been a monumental effort from many individuals to get Directive 21 this point! Kudos! [&o][&o][&o][&o]

[larryfulkerson]

That is what's called a tease. You are going to put something together to show your results....fantastic. Go for it.
I'm curious to see what you've found. Thanks for your hard work by the way.

[cpt flam]

You will find that SKG groups (with Ju 87) will have effect if you use them against Tank Div .
Even Inf Div can push big ones (9 Def if i remember well)

[larryfulkerson]

ORIGINAL: cpt flam
You will find that SKG groups (with Ju 87) will have effect if you use them against Tank Div .
Even Inf Div can push big ones (9 Def if i remember well)

Yes, you're right. Also, check out that anti-ship value. It's up there good enough to go ship
hunting. There's two groups of BB's and I've already sunk one of them but it came at the cost
of high losses in Stuka's because the Finns didn't protect them all that great.

[jzardos]

Yes. The anti-ship attacks by certain air units is good. I will look at more attacks with Ju87 units against Soviet armor. thanks

[jzardos]

I'm curious why my many of my reinforcements are being delayed. Here's what was suppose to arrive on turn 11, then on turn 11 most have been moved to turn 12. Only got a coastal for and Italian air unit as reinforcements on turn 12. Is this WAD where did I miss something about German unit reinforcement delays?

thanks

[jzardos]

Then on turn 11 you can see my turn 11 reinforcements are now scheduled to arrive on turn 12...maybe?
Could use these units... [&:]

[sPzAbt653]

Check the hex Locations, they must be friendly in order for these units to arrive. [:)]

[jzardos]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Check the hex Locations, they must be friendly in order for these units to arrive. [:)]

The first on I checked seems to be under friendly control 98, 147?

Do they have to be connected to the rail net? Because that is probably why they are not showing up? I'm having to go back and repair bridges on the rail lines, because I didn't notice and was thinking they would auto-repair. [:(]

[sPzAbt653]

Do they have to be connected to the rail net?

No. Thanks for the screen shot - Units can't be placed on a Super River with a broken bridge. Repair the bridge, unit should arrive [8D]

[jzardos]

Ok, here's my proof that the ground support in Direct 21 is all messed up and broken. I don't even know what to say. How did somebody not notice this before. Do people realize how important and potent air ground support during WW2? I'd wasn't a silver bullet to winning a battle, but my god if people would just read up on the first hand accounts and battle reports you'd understand how bad this is for Directive 21. I've read over 100 books on the eastern front from authors like Glantz, House, Carius, Clark, Beevor, Mosier, etc. This type of result is pure fantasy and far from the reality an outcome. Germans never made any single raid this large on the eastern front, but if they had. The two defender units would have been shatter materially, morally, and given the early start of the eastern offensive .. probably surrender the next time German ground units attacked.


So let's see the proof, which just makes me want to cry .. again. Attack with almost 1500 planes, 500 which are Stukas!

notice the loses of ~100 planes... that will be important when you see the post of the defender (spoiler alert, no true AA).

Also, why can't we get a row with totals? Can't be that hard to code in a totals rows? Makes me skratch my head.

[jzardos]

Now here's the punchline. With that massive air attack on a clear weather hex, here's the loses to the defender. The scroll bar, is missing a OT-7 tanks which took no loses. So how the heck could these units / weapons disabled or shot down even 80 planes? Going to give a high number (20) that could have been dmg/lost to landings and mechanical issues.

ONCE AGAIN THE DEFENDER HAS NO AA UNITS!!!

Good thing this game has an editor, because I could never play this scenario without making some changes, until I wanted a fantasy game.


Not trying to be a jerk, just need to get this point across. I know that not all gamers and designers have the time to be a part-time historian. The scenario is still amazing has great potential to be one of the best I've seen. Wish I could have helped with beta and tweaks when this was scenario was in the design / revises phases [:(]. Still do appreciate the hard work, but I can't keep my mouth shut here. Issues are just too egregious.

[larryfulkerson]

I've been thinking of putting an Axis PO in D21. Anybody have heart burn over this?

[TPOO]

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

I've been thinking of putting an Axis PO in D21. Anybody have heart burn over this?

For PO assist for the Axis player would work for about 30 to 50 turns. That is kind of the way it is set up now. For an entire AXIS PO vs a Soviet Human opponent would require the entire Axis OOB to be redone as the Axis side does not have enough units in division scale to cover the front effectively against the Soviet side as well as redo a lot of events. Even in PO assist for an Axis Human player the PO allows Soviet units in the rear and does not deal effectively with them.
I have talked to Steve about doing this but not sure if it is in the cards or not.

[Meyer1]

jzardos: I think your vision of the importance of close air support in WW2 is wildly exaggerated, but we can discuss that later.

Now, your example. More details are needed: what was the terrain? What was the soviet units entrenchment level? You should also check the toaw log to find some answers.
So, 1600 planes and 94 losses (losses, not shot downs), less than 6%. That's very reasonable, specially considering the number of destroyed planes, only 21, which is little more than 1%. Don't know what's the problem here.
I would guess that the rifle squads have some anti-air rating. You could edit that out to 0 if you want.
The level of losses of the soviets doesn't seem unreasonable, that could be much different depending the circumstances. About the "moral" effects, we can't see it here, but I bet there were effects on the red units (again, toawlog [:)], and also that could be very different for different units (proficiency)

[marion61]

My "heart yearns" to see that done!!! It'd be a lot of work, but I'd play test it for you.[8D]

[Meyer1]

From "the Blitzkrieg Legend" (great book BTW), let's take a look at a real war massive air strike example. (check the last paragraph for the surprising physical results)


Apocalypse over Sedan: The Luftwaffe’s Rolling Raid

The gunners stopped shooting and hit the dirt; the infantrymen dove into the trenches and remained there motionless; they were deafened by the crashing of bombs and screeching of the dive-bomber sirens. . . . Just 5 hours of this nightmare sufficed to shatter their nerves; they were no longer able to react to the approaching infantry.
General [Edmond] Ruby on the effect of the German air raid

The Luftwaffe’s mass bombing raid at Sedan on 13 May was the mightiest event of the campaign in the west and also one of the biggest tactical surprises of the war. According to the British and French reports, the psychological shock effect even exceeded the effect of the first poison gas and tank attacks during World War I. Never again would the Luftwaffe carry out anywhere near such a massive attack against such a narrow frontline sector.
As von Kleist emphasized in the order for the Meuse River crossing on 13 May, “almost all German air combat formations were to be employed here.” Although this promise was not completely fulfilled, nevertheless, the strongest concentration of aircraft units that had ever been seen until then hit the Sedan Sector.

The Third Air Fleet was employed primarily; II Air Corps under Loerzer was reinforced with formations from I Air Corps and the fighters of Jagdfliegerführer 3[3d Fighter Command]. At the same time, V.Fliegerkorps (V Air Corps) sealed off the attack in depth. In the afternoon, VIII.Fliegerkorps (VIII Air Corps), which until then had been employed under Luftflotte 2 (Second Air Fleet), also joined the attack. This was the so-called Nahkampf-Fliegerkorps (Close Support Air Corps) under Generalmajor Freiherr [Baron] [Wolfram] von Richthofen that had specialized in close ground support for the army. The 77th Sturzkampfgeschwader (Stukageschwader) (Divebomber Group) played a special role; its Commodore, Oberst [Günter] Schwartzkopff (posthumously Generalmajor),56 had been called the “Father of the Stuka.” A total of about 1,500 aircraft supported Panzer Group Kleist:

600 bombers (He 111, Do 17, Ju 88)
250 dive-bombers (Ju 87)
500 fighters (Me 109)
120 destroyers (Me 110)

Only fragments of the Luftwaffe files have been preserved, so it is no longer possible to estimate how many aircraft sorties were flown altogether for direct or indirect support. After all, many of those aircraft went out on several successive sorties on 13 May. Only a smaller air contingent was employed in the Monthermé-Charleville-Mézières Sector to support Panzer Corps Reinhardt. Most of the aircraft were concentrated on the Meuse River loop at Sedan to implement the attack method of the rolling raid that Guderian and Loerzer had developed. A total of 310 bombers, 200 dive-bombers, and 300 fighters and destroyers were available for this mission. There were 1,215 bomber and dive-bomber sorties flown in the four-kilometer-wide main effort sector inside and south of the Meuse River loop at Sedan alone. During the last ninety minutes prior to the Meuse River crossing, 750 bombers and dive-bombers supported Panzer Group Kleist. The Luftwaffe had drafted the following timetable for 13 May:

Phase 1, 0800–1200: At first, formations of the Third Air Fleet flew nuisance sorties against the French positions along the Meuse River between Flize and Mouzon, with the main effort near Sedan.
Phase 2, 1200–1540: The first dive-bomber formations of VIII Air Corps showed up punctually around noon. The attack procedure was now changed. That meant the systematic bombing of certain target groups.
Phase 3, 1540–1600: The Luftwaffe delivered a massive raid directed mainly against the Meuse River loop at Sedan during the phase immediately prior to the river crossing.
Phase 4, 1600–1730: Luftwaffe sorties were shifted into the depth of the enemy territory while the first infantry wave was crossing the Meuse River. The combined dive-bomber formations flew according to a precisely determined plan, raiding the rear area positions and the artillery.
Phase 5, 1730 to onset of darkness: To finish up, the bridgehead that had now been formed was sealed off in rear areas by engaging approaching enemy reserves.

It was primarily the mass bombing raid shortly before 1600 that presented an infernal spectacle, as was emphasized in the after-action reports. Attacks deep into the French defense system were continued for another one and a half hours, although with reduced intensity. That made it possible to keep neutralizing the artillery of the 55th Infantry Division. The psychological effect of this sheer ceaseless rolling raid, as figured by Guderian, was decisive. Whenever the Stuka pilots came racing at the enemy positions in their dives, they turned on a horribly screeching siren, the Jericho trumpet. In addition, attached to the bomb fins were so-called organ pipes, which produced a shrill whistling sound. Even the German soldiers on the north bank were profoundly impressed. With a mixture of fascination and horror, they contemplated this spectacle, which made the deep and round valley of Sedan resemble an amphitheater of smoke and flames:

What we now got to see during the next 20 minutes is one of the most tremendous impressions of this war. Squadron after squadron approaches at high altitude, deploys into a line formation and then the first aircraft came diving down perpendicularly, followed by the second, the third, and so on, ten, twelve aircraft pouncing simultaneously like predatory birds on their quarry, releasing their bomb load right over the target. . . . The explosion is immense each time and the noise is deafening. Everything is blurred. . . . The enemy is hit here by an enormous annihilation strike and still, more squadrons keep coming on, climbing to high altitudes in order then to dive steeply down with the same objective, that is, to bust the Sedan invasion gateway wide open. We stand there and watch events as if transfixed.

The German infantrymen felt considerably more queasy directly along the Meuse River bank: “All hell seems to have broken loose. . . . A sulfurous, yellowish-gray wall rises on the other bank; it keeps growing. The enormous air pressure causes glass panes to rattle and crack. . . . The ground is shaken; houses sway. What must it look like on the other side, among the French?”
The soldiers of the 55th Infantry Division were utterly unprepared for this inferno that now broke over their heads. 1st Lieutenant Michard described his horror:

Explosions keep crashing all over the place. All you can feel is the nightmare noise of the bombs whose whistling becomes louder and louder the closer they get. You have the feeling that they are zeroed in precisely on you; you wait with tense muscles. The explosion comes like relief. But then there is another one, then there are two more and ten more. . . . The whistling sounds are superposed and crisscrossed like a fabric without gaps; the explosions blend in a ceaseless thunder. When the intensity of that sound abates for a moment, you can hear yourself gasping for air. So, here we are, motionless, silent, crouched, hunched over, mouth open so that your eardrums will not burst. The bunker trembles. . . . Bombs of all caliber are being dropped. The small ones come down in packets. The big ones do not whistle. As they hit, the noise deceptively sounds like an approaching train. Twice I had acoustic hallucinations . . . that make me think that I own a railroad station; a train comes thundering in. . . . The crashing sound of the explosion shakes me out of my stupor and brutally returns me to reality. Now the dive-bombers join the other bombers. The noise from the siren of the diving aircraft drills into your ear and tears at your nerves. You feel as if you want to scream and roar.

Interestingly enough, the German officers, who observed this terrible spectacle from a safe distance, learned only several years after the war what the essence of the effect of the Luftwaffe raid had really been. Due to the initiative of a lecturer on military history at the French War College, in 1957 a meeting of officers of the former 1st Panzer Division and French veterans who had fought there in May 1940 took place on the former battlefield of Sedan. Graf von Kielmansegg was astonished because the actual destruction caused by the Luftwaffe—measured against the tremendous effort—was minimal. Hardly a single bunker suffered a direct hit that destroyed it, and only fifty-six men were listed as casualties. But the indirect effect was all the more enormous. The command of the 55th Infantry Division was paralyzed because all of the telecommunications cables that were frequently laid out in the open had been cut. Much more serious was the psychological paralysis of individual soldiers whose nerves often were unable to withstand the sustained bombardment of the rolling raids.

[larryfulkerson]

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson
I've been thinking of putting an Axis PO in D21. Anybody have heart burn over this?

ORIGINAL: marion61
My "heart yearns" to see that done!!! It'd be a lot of work, but I'd play test it for you.[8D]

That's what we like to see......volunteers. Thanks.

ORIGINAL: TPOO
For PO assist for the Axis player would work for about 30 to 50 turns. That is kind of the way it is set up now. For an entire AXIS PO vs a Soviet Human opponent would require the entire Axis OOB to be redone as the Axis side does not have enough units in division scale to cover the front effectively against the Soviet side as well as redo a lot of events. Even in PO assist for an Axis Human player the PO allows Soviet units in the rear and does not deal effectively with them.
I have talked to Steve about doing this but not sure if it is in the cards or not.

Thanks for your prompt reply Ricki dude. Yeah, I agree with everything you said. I've been looking
over the tracks in the editor and I can see it capturing Moscow and not much else. And you're
right about the lack of enough units. I turned Elmer loose with the Axis units in turn 26 and it's
T29 now and I'm seeing formations getting way out front ignoring support from neighboring units.
I'm wondering if "advance" instead of "attack" would fix that. And there's gaps appearing in the
front lines. Soviets are slipping through occasioally. Elmer can't do it right it appears. There's
alway going to be the need to "help" Elmer from time to time. There's only like 500 formatiions for
the Axis side and that's too few by half. And some of the formations are withdrawn during the game.
I'm thinking it's not worth the effort. Play WITE instead.

[larryfulkerson]

ORIGINAL: marion61
My "heart yearns" to see that done!!! It'd be a lot of work, but I'd play test it for you.[8D]

So the bottom line marion61 dude: D21 as it is already has a PO for the Axis side for about 50 turns or so.

[thomasharvey]

I'm wondering if "advance" instead of "attack" would fix that. And there's gaps appearing in the
front lines. Soviets are slipping through occasioally. Elmer can't do it right it appears. There's
alway going to be the need to "help" Elmer from time to time. There's only like 500 formatiions for
the Axis side and that's too few by half. And some of the formations are withdrawn during the game.
I'm thinking it's not worth the effort. Play WITE instead.


Try "secure" and "screen". When attack and advance are used the units concentrate. That can be effective to take an objective but you had better have others on secure and screen or you will be cut off.