M10 Wolverines

[jcax101]

Scenario 1 question, latest patch but no beta update. I have seen two US units (ID# 5136 and 5137) with Wolverines arriving in May 42. Records indicate production didn't start until Sept 42. Is this a database error, or am I missing something?

Thanks.

[Yaab]

My only find is here:

tm.asp?m=2631387&mpage=1&key=m10%2Cdevice&#2631452

7.24. 1183 Change the "available" date of LCU 1183 "M10 Wolverine TD" to 4206

[Alfred]

Sigh... [>:]
 
And then there were others, circa 2014, who were equally certain that their sources had the M10 in production from mid 1942.
 
Then to complicate the life of the scenario designer is the fact that approximately 4xTD LCUs arrive well before mid 1943 and they would have absolutely no replacements for any battle losses if the production only started mid 1943 or even early 1944 if accounting for any European priority.
 
So should the scenario designer decide to omit those LCUs from arriving in theatre in 1942?  Such a decision would certainly elicit howls of protest from the anal retentive.  What does the scenario designer then do?  Introduce the units with towed AT guns?  But that means a different TOE plus the unit would then really be ART, not ARM.  Not to mention the technical issue that you can't just change from an ART type unit to an ARM type unit; you would need to look at withdrawing first and then returning late 1943/early 1944. 
 
Where would the returning unit now arrive?  No way the scenario designer can anticipate where each individual player would have had the unit when it withdrew so the arrival location would be somewhere in CONUS.  Yes I can hear the howls of protest that it might take weeks for the unit to be sent forward back to where it had been when withdrawn.
 
IIRC, Blackhorse was the dev responsible for the American LCU OOB.  Like all the other devs he has an excellent track record both in being accurate and coming up with suitable compromises where necessary in order to comply with the game engine.
 
Alfred

[rustysi]

Abstracted dev's decision. Check.

Works for me.[8D]

[Dili]

Can't a unit appear with Wolverine and the production only start much later?

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: Dili

Can't a unit appear with Wolverine and the production only start much later?

And what? Render these units useless for how long? What's the big deal, we're talking four units here, how much effect are they really going to have on the outcome of the war? Geeze, JFB's get so much, throw the AFB's a bone once in a while.[:D]

[HansBolter]

Same thing happens with a lot of different American airframes.

Squadrons with only a couple of planes enter the game several months before any production of replacements begin to occur for those airframes.

The squadrons go into training mode waiting for airframes to arrive.

[spence]

As I recall the US deployed a half-track mounting a 75mm AT gun from the beginning of the war (a self-propelled AT gun). Perhaps that is what those "early" M-10s are. After all from the standpoint of the tinfoil tanks deployed by the IJA anything with a 75mm was a "supertank".

The game actually uses the GMC 75mm Halftrack as that self-propelled ATG but shows the only upgrade as the M4 Close Support Tank. The M3 Mtor Gun Carriage went into production before Pearl Harbor. There appears to be one such unit in the Philippines at the start of the war (or perhaps shortly thereafter). Haven't checked the individual M10 units but it is likely that SPATG entering before the M10 were produced were actually equipped with the M3s.

[wdolson]

Early M-10s all went to the MTO and ETO. It was quite late in the war before any made it to the PTO.

The M3 GMC halftrack tank destroyer is included as a separate thing in the game.

Bill

[Alpha77]

Small error, easy to correct. These had AT guns and converted later (43?) to SP... most errors in the land datebase are corrected in the version I play it seems works ok so far

[crsutton]

A small error that has little or no impact on the game at all. I use them in combat as emergency reserves and if they get depleted just hold them in reserve until production starts in mid 43.

[Reg]

Is it an error or a deliberate design decision? see Alfreds post above.

The issue is that the unit type would need to change from (AT) artillery to armour with an OOB change when the Wolverines start production. The designers have made it an armoured unit from its historical creation date to avoid a game limitation, particularly as the effect on game play will be minimal....

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Reg


Is it an error or a deliberate design decision? see Alfreds post above.

The issue is that the unit type would need to change from (AT) artillery to armour with an OOB change when the Wolverines start production. The designers have made it an armoured unit from its historical creation date to avoid a game limitation, particularly as the effect on game play will be minimal....

I've seen unit types change in the middle of a game, but I don't recall details about the process so did not comment about it above.

[JeffroK]

An example would be the Australian Cavalry Bdes changing to Armoured Bdes.

[Alfred]

The 2nd and 4th Aus Cav Bde both undergo a name change and a TOE change at the same time.  Both are INF units which alter to ARM.
 
You would have to ask Blackhorse why he didn't follow a similar process.  Besides the obvious one of not using up additional TOE slots, changing from a small unit (eg ART) may not be the same as changing from a large unit (INF).  Renaming may also be a factor.
 
The bottom line is that as originally shipped those TD LCUs arrived with no Wolverine production.  People complained and although wdolson at the time stated he thought it was a database error that they arrived with Wolverines, subsequently in a patch Wolverine production was brought forward.  So either the patch decision was knowingly compounding the database "error" or it wasn't so easy to go down a similar route as that of the 2nd and 4th Aus Cav Bdes in the patch.
 
Alfred