German 88's

[Mike Rothery]

Originally posted by Del:
How do you modify an 88 to change from an AA role to an AT role? You lower the barrel and chamber the proper round. That's all. How do you change it back to an AA role? You elevate the barrel and chamber the proper round. It's not rocket science.

Sorry but your wrong

If the 88 is deployed for AT work, and you then want to change to an AA role, do the following;

1. Check that you loaction has all round visibility, and if not then move.

2. Go to the rear and collect the AA predictor, bring it forward and set it up.

3. Change from an 8 man crew to an eleven man crew, and move the crew to different positions on the gun.

4. Lay out a heap of HE time fuse shells ready to set with the fusing machine.

5. Wait for the enemy aircraft to show.

There are two issues to think about....firstly can an 88 set up for AT work quickly switch back to an AA mode?

secondly, is there any point in having any heavy FLAK gun in SPWAW?

The answer to both is, no.


Now before I get the next counter argument, let me counter it before you start.

Why not set up your 88's always with the predictor attached, and the HE ammo layed out? That way you're ready for any eventuality.

Why not? because the predictor was not issued per gun, but per section of guns...all the guns in the section would always have to be within about 50m of the predictor. Why not? because if you are going to lob shells at tanks, then they are probably going to shoot back. The last thing you want is a heap of unnecessary equipment to pack up when you need to scoot, and lots of shells lying round waiting to get hit by something.

Please guys, you have to undertand that an 88 was not just a bigger version of a 40mm Bofors gun....they work on an entirely different concept. If you don't understand go find a book on the subject. The ammo in the 88 was time fused....you have to predict (about 10-15 seconds ahead of time) the distance from the gun you want the shell to explode.

Ask yourself this, if the 88 was able to shoot at low flying aircraft, why bother to have 20mm and 37mm FLAK guns? Why not just standardise of the 88 that can do all the AT work at the same time?

Each AA gun in the Germany line up; 20mm 37mm, 88mm, 120mm had its own niche. Sure thay each overlapped a bit, but you needed all of them to achieve a complete AA solution. The light FLAK couldn't hit anything more than a couple of thousand feet up....that's were the 88 comes in up to its ceiling, then the 120mm for the really high altitude stuff. Likewise the big guns were hopeless at the low and fast targets...sure they could lob some shells, but with no chance to hit. The standard 88 FLAK section had, by 1944, its own light FLAK to protect it from strafers.

[Stukadawg]

Wow!
So much to learn here.
As far as the game is concerned, I'm glad that the same gun is available as two seperate entries for both roles. That way when rarity becomes an issue, and the AT guns are redded out, I just go buy the AA guns.
In the game, the differences don't limit it's usefullness in the AT role. I even forget which ones I bought as AA and AT. The fact is, once enemies are within sight and range, both 88s do just fine. I haven't had a chance to find out if the AT version will attack aircraft (it shouldn't for realistic purposes), but the AAs will op-fire at ground targets (at least I'm pretty sure they will).

[Mikimoto]

Hello.

I know another use for the 88's. They were used as bulldozers. In the winter of 1941, Hitler asked the CiC of Army Group North (Manstein?) why they did not use the 88's in anti-tank role. They had heavy problems dealing with T-34's and Kv's all along the front.
Manstein said they were using those heavies in point blank fire against the ground, making holes for the grunts not to die frozen at night.

[jambo1]

My experiance with both 88's is this...the AA 88 will if deployed close to the front likely fire in AT role and if in overwatch it will use it's shots on any aircraft present, I used to like have them around when I had to contend with the likes of B25 H's , but against smaller fighters my quad 20's would always but prefered. AA 88's should remain in the OOB if for no other reason than to be able to put them in to defensive positions and such. As for 88's in my core forces, I'd only be towing them around in the early parts of the war, once I can buy at least 75 L48's or tank destroyers I replace them. Mobility is King. As for historical use, I think it is mote point as to whether an AA 88's would switch back to AA if the enemy has closed to the point that it is now fighting in a ground role. Maybe AA pieces can twigged to not be able to revert to AA once they have joined the ground fray?? That would solve the problem for the game at our scale and force use to think twice before we make our AA gunners join the ground battle, after all we usually would rather have them swatting down Zoomies.

[Charles2222]

Of course any unit firing 13+ times in a turn because of the "special op fire" is equally as unlikely and annoying. But I live with it and go on.

Not too unlikely. Actually the 88 could fire 15-20 rounds per minute. So if you look at the opfire as 1/2 a turn and each turn is between 2-5 minutes, it's not at all unlikely, and I would think there were guns that could and did fire at an even higher rate.

[Larry Holt]

Originally posted by Charles_22:
Not too unlikely. Actually the 88 could fire 15-20 rounds per minute. So if you look at the opfire as 1/2 a turn and each turn is between 2-5 minutes, it's not at all unlikely, and I would think there were guns that could and did fire at an even higher rate.

Can you clairify this firing rate? I believe that it is for unaimed aerial targets where the gun is firing "up there" to put flak in proximity to high flying aircraft. Hitting a point target like a tank requires more target acquisition time. I see the acquisition time, not the weapons rate of fire as the limiting issue.

[Charles2222]

Mike Rothery: Once on the subject of the 88 on another thread, perhaps it was you, someone believed that it took forever to unload an 88 off the trailer (nevermind the fact that it could fire off the trailer too). I presented website documentation that proved that belief erroneous. A trained crew could get it off the trailer and ready to fire in 20 seconds. It was loading it back on the trailer that was time consuming, but only 60 seconds at that. The first question that comes to my mind, is how was the gun prepared, as much as one could prepare it, for it's next role while in transport? Now, if one bases all useage of 88 transporting as general practice of the last hyperlink I had, then it's commonly was transported in being in something of the AA role. So the question begged, is that what the other website stated, that since it only took 20 seconds to be ready to fire, off the trailer, were they referring to it being ready in the AA role, or the AT role, or either? I would suggest the AT role was an easier adjustment, but even if they were talking specifically of having the gun as ready in transport as it could be for the AT role, and then unpacking it for AT, and it took 20 seconds, just how long would unpacking to an AA role take? As well, would it be quciker to unpack from transport to being able to fire it, or to switch the gun already on the ground to it's opposite role? I've yet to see anything definitive except how long it took to unpack and fire, and to pack it back up.

[Charles2222]

Larry Holt: I'm just stating the dry statistics from the achtungpanzer website. Whether they could fire very accurately at that rate I don't know. I would assume they could fire at a higher rate if firing at the same target, which would require less movement. Here's the direct reference:
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/88mm.htm

BTW the book reference that was made, part of it I did not quote, either before or after what I did quote, Major Luck spoke of employing the 88s on "hills". Apparently the bad lowering was made up for by placing on a non-flat part of the hill, or else the poor lowering didn't matter (the guns mentioned were in the AT role when on the hill as well). I could drag out the quote when I get home if anyone feels it's necessary.

[ May 17, 2001: Message edited by: Charles_22 ]

[Mike Rothery]

I don't recall seeing a reference to setup time, but I'm happy to bring some figures to the table.

The figure of 20 seconds sounds like parade ground wank to me.

The figure in my reference is:

"Time to change from traveling to firing position: approx. 2 1/2 minutes with 6 man crew"

The 88 by Chris Ellis

Now I would assume from the photos that the time quoted is to fire with wheels still attached which was OK for AT work, but the setup for AA work would be more like 15 to 20 minutes.

Some other relevant quotes from the same book;

"Time fuses were normally used for HE, but a percussion fuse was developed in the last year of the war"

" A heavy FLAKbatterie would have four 88s and two 20mm guns when part of a field division. The 20mm guns were to protect the 88s and were sometimes vehicle-mounted. Each battery also had a predictor."

"For direct fire the telescopic sight ZF20E was used.....When used against land, sea or air targets in conjunction with the predictor/director a panoramic telescope RblF32 was placed in a holder on top of the recuperator to establish the initial orientation of the gun with director."

"The 88s primary (fire control) equipment was KommandoGeraet 36 used in conjunction with the azimuth and elevation indicators and the fuse setter on the mounting. It was linked to the mount by cables.....This equipment required a crew of 11 to track the target, take readings, and feed in information....The KdoGr 36 was supplied one per battery (ie. one per four 88s)...was carried on a short cruciform carriage..(and) had its own towing vehicle."

"In addition to the anti-aircraft sights and controls the weapons were fitted with telescopic sights for anti-tank work and later in the war some had the transmission systems removed or isolated so they were only suitable for anti-tank fire."

Ok I'll do you a deal.....lets leave both FLAK 18/36's in the game...the one classified as Heavy FLAK and the one classified as an AT gun.....but limit the version that can fire in an AA role to buying it only in batteries of four guns, plus the two 20mm's plus the extra predictor/director unit and then code the game so that they can't fire in AA role in forest hexes and must be all squashed into one or two hexes at most, and give them a really appalling chance to hit low flying fighter aircraft. If you can simulate all of that then keep them in the game.

If you can't simulate those restrictions in the game, then take the Heavy FLAK classified 8.8cm FLAK 18/36 out of the game, but leave the Anti Tank Gun classified 8.8cm FLAK 18/36 in.

[Mike Rothery]

I had a look at the Achtung panzer site as was suggested. Nice pics, doesn't add much to the debate unfortunately.

I suugest that the 20 seconds may be the time to actually attach the bogies...and bears litlle relevance to the time required to bring the gun into action.

My reference has the reverse pack up time at 3 1/2 minutes with a 6 man crew (6 + 2 for AT role, 9 + 2 for AA)

[Charles2222]

What about the other large caliber AA guns Mike? You know, the Russkies 76mm and 85mm guns, the US 90mm, and all the rest. They all fire from both AT/AA roles in the game, I understand. Seems to me that if you're going to limit large caliber AA mounts that way, that you would also need to be as restrictive on the smaller mounts, because a lesser part of the argument deals with having to switch ammo types to fire in a different role. Would tanks that had a different belt for AP and HE rounds, be able to place the other type of belt in in short order under combat conditions (though they could certainly retreat temporarily till the adjustment was made)? Seems to me that it might be coded whereas all AA mounts are treated the same way. Yeah, perhaps they shouldn't, but that's how it stands.

[Charles2222]

Mike: I don't know how much clearer it could be:

I am told that a well practiced crew could dismount a gun and be ready to fire in 20 seconds

The keys are 'dismount' and 'fire'. Now perhaps the man saying that is a liar or the people he heard that from were, but the meaning is very clear.

[Paulus Pak]

You know, all of you forgot about one special type of "88". I'm talking about 8.8 cm PAW 600, or PWK 8H63. It was "Panzerabwehrwerfer", "rocket launcher" shooting with fin stabilized sabots. Practicaly, it was not a rocket launcher but smooth-bore AT gun. First PAW 600 were introduced to the service in december 1944. Until the march 1945 about 20 pieces were built. PAW 600 was able to pierce 140 mm armor at 750 metres range, it had limited range of about 5000 metres, and it was very light construction - about 640 kg.
BTW can anyone confirm those informations. I'm quite sure of them, except the main thing: the calibre. I have contradictory informations, that PAW 600 had 88 mm or 80 mm calibre.

[Mike Rothery]

Ok well, let me put it this way, the reference in Ellis' book makes more sense, and sounds more realistic. The quote of Achtung Panzer could be apocryphal or it maight have been taken out of context, it is a second hand source.

20 secs to drop the bogies might be a possibility....but looking at the traverse and elevation times, I'd say it would take you that long to bring the muzzle to bear once you were "in the seat".

[Mike Rothery]

Originally posted by Paulus:
You know, all of you forgot about one special type of "88". I'm talking about 8.8 cm PAW 600, or PWK 8H63. It was "Panzerabwehrwerfer", "rocket launcher" shooting with fin stabilized sabots. Practicaly, it was not a rocket launcher but smooth-bore AT gun. First PAW 600 were introduced to the service in december 1944. Until the march 1945 about 20 pieces were built. PAW 600 was able to pierce 140 mm armor at 750 metres range, it had limited range of about 5000 metres, and it was very light construction - about 640 kg.
BTW can anyone confirm those informations. I'm quite sure of them, except the main thing: the calibre. I have contradictory informations, that PAW 600 had 88 mm or 80 mm calibre.

8cm Panzerabwehrwerfer 600 (Elfenbein) later know as the 8cm PWK 8H63.

High/low preesure gun firing a rocket propelled shell based on the 81 mm mortar round.

Penetration at 750m was 140mm at zero degrees slope.

Max range 750 m

260 units made between December 1944 and March 1945

[AmmoSgt]

Hmmm the part i don't get is ,all these references that I see all mention the use of the 88 as artilery .. why is this not an issue here.. in the past versions of the game the germans have been short the basic 75mm and 105mm How type weapons in the OOB .. and it seems that the 88 as well could fire indirect , if not as an onboard asset then perhaps as an off board asset .. maybe even make it a triple threat where you could set it for an arty bombardment have it special opfire at attacking tanks and aircraft then blow-up some infantry in it's role as arty ....

[Charles2222]

AmmoSgt: I think what you just presented works contrary to your general observatiobn that everyone is so pro-German here. The pro-German elements are really slipping around here, aren't they?

[AmmoSgt]

Charles uh maybe i plan on signing up as an Axis league player this time around , maybe I might start seeing a lot of the obvious pro allied bias that is rampant on these boards ...heheheeeehee

[Charles2222]

AmmoSgt: I'm starting to wonder if you're seriously kidding or kidding seriously. You little trickster!

[Voriax]

Hi all.

This doesn't really solve the 88 debate but I'd say you'll find the following document interesting: http://simonides.org/~manuals/us-misc/special/no8/special08-index01.html

The 88 part starts from page 10, but the whole document is well worth reading.

Voriax