Here we go again (Ger. party)

[dave123]

So another MP game. Germans invade England.. again.

My massive navy is useless. Anything that gets near the Channel; German air and Subs have a feast. If I go scouting for German subs with air, they get destroyed. If I go scouting for German subs with dd's, they get ambushed and the follow up dd's watch as the subs just dive. Now the dd's don't have the action points left to get out of range, so they get toasted by air.

My British air is now useless. 4 fighters and 2 tac air are in hiding in northern England because every fight they get in, they get heavy losses, and it's no longer worth fixing them as morale and rediness are so bad that each fight is worse than the last. This past turn, I had an entrenched 3 level 2 aa unit get killed by a corps and 2 tac air. It did 0 damage on the tac air. I really thing the RAF should be buffed, as well as the AA units.


Did I mention that I'm getting steam rolled in Egypt? With all my money going to defend England, well Egypt just can't stop Rommel. Cairo will fall in a few turns (it's July of 41).

I've got almost nothing in research, so even if by some miracle the Germans decided to go home; I would be left with no money and no research, and little long term chance of winning.

The Americans don't seem to care in the least. Really, I would think they would be alarmed, but no, they are at 58%. Even Stalin, with no love for England, would be expected to be tempted to jump on the Germans early (since they are preoccupied in England). But no, he does not seem to care, he is at 55%.

My opponent bypassed London and went after my HQ, and now he is headed to Manchester, so even though London is still in my hands, the losses are just too high to think it will survive for long. Any time now, he will just hit it with a ton of air and that will be that.

So England will fall. Egypt will fall, and I will surrender because I know from experience that trying to take back the UK is just about impossible. Even if I could, I would be so far behind in research and units that I could never win.

My opponent is not better than me, in fact, I beat him last game when he didn't go after England.

Sorry if this just seems like a rant, but I've been playing SC for 15 years and love it; but this seems like it's approaching game breaker status. I know going into every game that if a 1/2 way competent opponent decides to invade England that I will lose.

Not much fun.

By the way, here is what I have already tried: I upgraded the home guard, I got the "free" special forces unit after sending it to fail in Finland. I evacuated all my BEF to England. I have lvl 1 command and control and a chit working on lvl 2, (to upgrade my HQ). I have level 2 aa and, until last turn, 2 lvl 2 aa units. My HQ is set to auto assist and I monitor it closely to help. I leave units entrenched, and built several corps and garrisons before he came ashore - but it's all fodder.

Any advice?

[Christolos]

What tech levels do your air and naval assets have, and how are they comparable to the corresponding Axis levels?

C

[Leadwieght]

How quickly did the Germans seize a port?
My experience—playing both sides—is that the Germans need to seize a port almost immediately or they will lose eventually.

[Sugar]

Does it really matter how quickly they seize a port? With 2 Paras and air superiority it`s just a matter of time anyway.

This game is lost I fear, if you can`t stand the Axis in NA. GB will not be able to defend both England and Egypt, you`ll have to decide which one you'll lose. There's in fact only 1 right solution: defend Egypt at all costs. This is determined in the victory conditions; neither Leningrad or Moscow nor Stalingrad will hold against a competent opponent, and with Kairo the Decisive Victory is just a few bomber attacks on London and one paradrop away.

Additionally Seelöwe is a Pyrrhus victory. It`s very time consuming, binding valuable units urgently needed in the Med., and economically not worth the effort. It will hurt the Brits of course, but also the Germans.

[Harrybanana]

Sugar, the game would be over if you were the Axis. But without knowing all the details I believe it is premature to say that this game is lost for the Allies. I am playing a game now where the Allies lost both London and Cairo, but the Axis were so weakened that they were unable to make any headway in Russia. As a result the Allies have bounced back and will win the game. So the question is how strong are the Russians and how weak are the Axis? In particular, what are their respective tech levels.

As for defending the UK my advice is this:

1. Whenever faced with a DE that will affect USSR mobilization, always choose the one that will decrease it the least. The only exception is perhaps waging the Winter War with Finland. So do not accept the Pact revision, do not ban the communists, do not aid the Finns, do not annex the Balkans. If USSR mobilization is high then the Axis will want to think twice about invading the UK and pushing it even higher.

2. Upgrade the AA in important Cities, towns,ports and resources. It only costs 10 MPPs per tech level and will cost the Axis lots of air losses.

3. If possible, use your BBs to bombard Axis ports and towns to reduce his supply and/or prevent him from transporting units over.

4. Use your strategic bomber to do the same thing.

5. Do not intercept with your fighters. They are more useful escorting your own TAC.

6. Use your carriers wisely. They can often destroy a weakened ground unit.

Sugar is right that if the Axis really want the UK they will generally be able to get it. But that does not necessarily mean that the war is over. The job of the Brits is to make it as costly for the Axis as possible.

[dave123]

thanx for all the advice.

@Christolos Both of us had lvl 2 fighters at the start. I've done no naval advances except carrier fighters.

@Leadweight (don't we have a game going?) the Germans got a port the first turn. That hurt alot, but not sure how I could have stopped them. It was all air, escorted paratroopers and tac air just slaughtered the entrenched corps. (portsmith). My fighters intercepted, but were beat down pretty bad. The city did not have aa upgraded as the attack caught me by suprize.

@ Sugar - doesn't that mean the game is broke? Rommel and the Italians will take Egypt, so I don't think it bled any units of the sealion.

@Harry - The Germans have only lost 1 tank (at sea, and I paid dearly to do it), and one other unit, a corps I think on the beaches. I don't see them having any more losses as they win every battle handily.

#1 is great advice, I had actually consider a couple of those, my next game, I'm going to do them all. Not sure how much that will help in terms of Russian rediness, but I like the idea.

#2 done

#3 Impossible. every ship that ventures to the channel gets jumped by subs, and even if they don't, air will catch them when they try to leave. Maybe if I had seen it coming...

#4 He made one attack, on the tank I sank. Lost 7 factors, he is done.

#5 yeah, but seems wrong. The RAF did ok in the real world, if memory serves.

#6 intercepting air just wasted every carrier attack that tried. Last turn, for example, an 7 strength carrier and an 8 strength tac air (both good morale and rediness, and hq support for the tac)tried to damage the tank that broke through my line. Both units lost 4 strength and missed the tank.

I've lost England a few times. Not sure why some are saying the war is not over. Once England fell, the USA and Russia just watched as the axis gobbled up Egypt and my torn up navy ran to Canada. What happens after that? I can't imagine how difficult it would be to get England back, or to try a European invasion without Egypt and England...

I'm thinking about buying an Eng. on the first turn, and filling south England with forts and upgraded AA. Thoughts on that?

[Sugar]

- doesn't that mean the game is broke?

No, not necessarily. The victory conditions are the same as in the predecessors, and they worked fine. If you ask if your current match is broken, I say it depends on your opponent.

It`s a strategical question: of course it's always good to do as much damage and delay to the enemy whereever possible, but if you ask if I´d prefer to lose England or Egypt, I'd always choose England.

From your description it seems the Axis will soon be able to concentrate on Russia early on. If she does, war could be over very soon; especially if she manages to get Spain into the Axis.

The first step to win is either to hold one of the cities or to retake another of the cities to meet the victory conditions.

[xwormwood]

ORIGINAL: dave123

#5 yeah, but seems wrong. The RAF did ok in the real world, if memory serves.

Yes, true, but in game terms the RAF played against a rather foolish opponent (stopping at Dunqerque, bombing offensive switched from an "ok, this is really starting to work" to a "waste everything to Blitz London" kind of strategie etc.), while you play against an experienced opponent who is trying to avoid to re-enact the Axis mistakes.

[Harrybanana]

You say it is July 1941. Has Barbarossa been launched? How many land units does Germany have? How many air units? How much has Germany spent on research? How much has Russia spent on research? Is Spain Axis or still neutral? If neutral what is its current Axis leaning? How many MPPS is Germany receiving per turn? Have you lost all of the UK, or are you still fighting in Scotland? How far have the Axis advanced into Iraq? I assume the Iraq revolt happened; has the UK reconquered Iraq?

With respect to the carrier and TAC attacks on his tank:

1. Were the attacks escorted?

1. What did the combat calculator estimate the losses would be? If it did not estimate a hit on the tank than, in my opinion, you should not have launched these attacks. As I said, you have to use the carriers wisely, which usually means when they are at full strength and 95% or greater readiness.


The bomber attack on his tank was worth it if it was necessary to destroy it. But if you lost 7 points than it obviously was not escorted.

[OxfordGuy3]

I too find it quite frustrating in this game how useless the massive Royal Navy is at preventing a landing, hope there is some way to improve the naval aspect of the game further - it is already better than it was at launch

[Hellfirejet]

This games naval game will never be right as long as it thinks ships are made of GLASS!

I have said it from the very first moment I started playing these games. The naval game can't be an extension of the land campaign, combat on land can't be replicated at sea they are completely different.


What is wrong with the naval aspect is this.

Ship v Ship combat should have a much higher percentage of having no effect, I increase the chance of evading via the editor to simulate this.

Aircraft attacks against ships are too effective. This is not the Pacific theater where most of the time it was carrier against carrier USA V Japan. This game is the North Atlantic and Europe where Britain used obsolete Swordfish aircraft on their Carriers.


I never ever play the standard release game the naval game using that option sucks big time. I love these games but I hate how the naval game is portrayed.[:-]

[GeneralFerraro]

ORIGINAL: kirk23

Aircraft attacks against ships are too effective. This is not the Pacific theater where most of the time it was carrier against carrier USA V Japan. This game is the North Atlantic and Europe where Britain used obsolete Swordfish aircraft on their Carriers.

If I may add my two cents, the Bismarck was crippled by those Swordfish aircraft. I find the whole naval game realistic and [most importantly] very fun. [;)]

[Taxman66]

That's nothing compared to what happened to the Italian navy at Taranto.

Having said that I wish the game could go to a sea zone system like World in Flames.

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: kirk23

This games naval game will never be right as long as it thinks ships are made of GLASS!

I have said it from the very first moment I started playing these games. The naval game can't be an extension of the land campaign, combat on land can't be replicated at sea they are completely different.


What is wrong with the naval aspect is this.

Ship v Ship combat should have a much higher percentage of having no effect, I increase the chance of evading via the editor to simulate this.

I assume what you are trying to simulate is the ships not finding one another at all, or the faster ship evading the slower. I agree with this. But by the same token if combat does occur than it should be more intensive with each ship doing a much greater possible range of damage. In the game if the Hood and the Bismark square off they are likely to do about 5 points of damage to each other. But historically it was more like the Bismark doing 10 points of damage to the Hood while receiving only 1 point of damage itself.

Aircraft attacks against ships are too effective. This is not the Pacific theater where most of the time it was carrier against carrier USA V Japan. This game is the North Atlantic and Europe where Britain used obsolete Swordfish aircraft on their Carriers.

I disagree. If the Luftwaffe had obtained mastery of the air over the English Channel and launched Sealion, it would have been suicidal for the RN to steam into the Channel to intercept the invasion forces or shell the beaches. At best they could have launched harassing attacks (primarily with destroyers) under cover of darkness.

In my opinion the problem the game has with recreating the Battle of Britain is how easily the Axis are able to gain mastery of the air. Historically, the Germans had a few disadvantages in the Battle of Britain including:

1. Goering,
2. British Radar,
3. Goering,
4. Relatively flimsy bombers with inadequate armament, and
5. Goering.

But in the game they will have the advantages of numbers, bombers that can actually hit back, experience and the better Leaders/HQs.

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: OxfordGuy3

I too find it quite frustrating in this game how useless the massive Royal Navy is at preventing a landing, hope there is some way to improve the naval aspect of the game further - it is already better than it was at launch

In my opinion, without control of the air the massive Royal Navy would have been unable historically to prevent a landing. Even during the height of the Battle of Britain, when the British thought an invasion was imminent, there were very few RN Ships (and I don't believe any capital ships) stationed in the English Channel Ports.

[Taxman66]

Harry, you missed one which should probably be up in the top 3:
German (single engine) Fighters lacked the range to escort the bombers very far into England, and their twin engine fighters were no match vs. the English fighters.

[dave123]

Thanx for all the responses,
Some questions, and input, if I may.
@Sugar – you would rather lose England than Egypt? That is 180 off what I would choose. How would you proceed with England axis occupied? Let’s say you save Egypt. How are you getting back into Europe? The Germans have more money, and less to defend (yes I know England must now be defended, but now the allies have much more than the channel between them and the beaches).

Good point wormwood, the Germans did play it poorly.
Yes it’s July 41. USA at 58%, Russia at 55%. So the axis is biding his time on Russia. But he should still be strong enough to hit them hard, since at 55%, England will most likely fall before they have to face the Russians and his losses have been low.
Spain is leaning 25 to allies. My French got 2 hits, and the English one. I did invest 150 by England into Spain during the game that I wish I had back, but I’ve had Spain fall several times, and last time I played this opponent, so I did not want a repeat. Looking back, I overplayed that. But I don’t think 150 would save me anyway. France fell in June, I think.
Current axis strength in England is 2 lvl 2 tanks, 2 para, 2 hq, 1 fighter,a couple of armies, and some corps, maybe 3 or 4. He does not have a ton of acreage, so all this is packed pretty tight in the vicinity of Portsmouth.
As it stands, he has Portsmouth and Bristol. I still have an army in London max entrench, an aa next to it on one side, a corps and a garrison on the other, a corps and a garrison at Plymouth, and everything north of oxford (but not much in the way of units). I have the special forces, a corps, and an army in the queue that will arrive in the next month or so.
I still have good strength units, but my hq is at 3 and my air is all toasted. I still have most of my navy. So things have not completely failed, but I’m seeing all battles going his way big time, so I know it will all fall apart and wanted advice before it was beyond saving. With US and Rus rediness so low, I know time is on his side.
My first air died mostly intercepting on the first couple of turns, and I’ve had little in the way of escort. Next game, I put them on escort.
A few other points:
Yes the Bismarck was crippled by a swordfish, but it was a one in one thousand hit. The Bismarck was attacked other times and not injured seriously. But still (like in Toronto) I recognize that air can dominate ships. My issue is the useless RAF. They were at least the equal of the Germans in air to air combat. So why am I losing so badly with HQ supported air? And why is my AA pretty much useless?
Another interesting point – remember the German Channel dash? Right up the channel and, everyone made it home.

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

Harry, you missed one which should probably be up in the top 3:
German (single engine) Fighters lacked the range to escort the bombers very far into England, and their twin engine fighters were no match vs. the English fighters.

Good point Taxman. I am unsure why in the game fighters can escort with a greater range than they can strike.

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: dave123

Thanx for all the responses,
Some questions, and input, if I may.
@Sugar – you would rather lose England than Egypt? That is 180 off what I would choose. How would you proceed with England axis occupied? Let’s say you save Egypt. How are you getting back into Europe? The Germans have more money, and less to defend (yes I know England must now be defended, but now the allies have much more than the channel between them and the beaches).

I will let Sugar answer this. But just so you know, Sugar is the best player of this game that I have met yet. I thought I was good, but he humbled me easily.

Good point wormwood, the Germans did play it poorly.
Yes it’s July 41. USA at 58%, Russia at 55%. So the axis is biding his time on Russia. But he should still be strong enough to hit them hard, since at 55%, England will most likely fall before they have to face the Russians and his losses have been low.

Russia will be gaining 2% to 5% mobilization per turn now (both Axis and Allied turns). So if you average 3.5% per turn they will be in the War within about 11 turns even if the Axis do not invade. Of course, in the meantime they will also be gaining more MPPs each turn.

Spain is leaning 25 to allies. My French got 2 hits, and the English one. I did invest 150 by England into Spain during the game that I wish I had back, but I’ve had Spain fall several times, and last time I played this opponent, so I did not want a repeat. Looking back, I overplayed that. But I don’t think 150 would save me anyway. France fell in June, I think.

So if he wants Spain he will have to attack Algeria. That is good, it means his MPPs will be relatively low even if he conquers most of the UK.

Current axis strength in England is 2 lvl 2 tanks, 2 para, 2 hq, 1 fighter,a couple of armies, and some corps, maybe 3 or 4. He does not have a ton of acreage, so all this is packed pretty tight in the vicinity of Portsmouth.

So if you can keep up the fight in the UK for a few more turns he will not have these units for Barbarossa. That is also good.`

As it stands, he has Portsmouth and Bristol. I still have an army in London max entrench, an aa next to it on one side, a corps and a garrison on the other, a corps and a garrison at Plymouth, and everything north of oxford (but not much in the way of units). I have the special forces, a corps, and an army in the queue that will arrive in the next month or so.
I still have good strength units, but my hq is at 3 and my air is all toasted. I still have most of my navy. So things have not completely failed, but I’m seeing all battles going his way big time, so I know it will all fall apart and wanted advice before it was beyond saving. With US and Rus rediness so low, I know time is on his side.
My first air died mostly intercepting on the first couple of turns, and I’ve had little in the way of escort. Next game, I put them on escort.

Most of this is, of course, not good. You don't need the HQ for supply in England just for support/unit attachment. But at strength 3 it is not providing much support. So move the HQ as far north as you can while still maintaining unit attachment and then build it back up to full strength (I know this will be expensive). If you have lost both of your fighters in the UK that is very bad. If you have the MPPs build one ASAP (if lost in supply they should be cheaper). If you don't have the MPPs then you will have to use your carrier air to escort your TAC (of which you should have 2 in England). Not sure why your AA is ineffective, perhaps because not attached to an effective HQ. Keep a close eye on your units efficiencies. If you still have most of the RN than you may want to make a suicide run into the English Channel to try and get some BBs adjacent to Bristol and Portsmouth to bombard the ports and towns. Send in your DDs, CLs, and CAs first to engage his subs and other screening units. If you do commit the RN then commit it all. He only has so many attacks. At least while his airforce is destroying your fleet it will give your land units a turn of rest.

A few other points:
Yes the Bismarck was crippled by a swordfish, but it was a one in one thousand hit. The Bismarck was attacked other times and not injured seriously. But still (like in Toronto) I recognize that air can dominate ships. My issue is the useless RAF. They were at least the equal of the Germans in air to air combat. So why am I losing so badly with HQ supported air? And why is my AA pretty much useless?
Another interesting point – remember the German Channel dash? Right up the channel and, everyone made it home.

Who is commanding your HQ? If you sacked Gort and replaced him with Montgomery than I'm not sure why he is outperforming you in the air assuming you are both the same tech level. I am guessing that his units have higher efficiency. If an air unit has low efficiency you are often better off grounding it for few turns to let it build up, then to send it into combat to be slaughtered.

[Taxman66]

Factors like the naval system and the universal base ratings on planes (and ships) makes Germany far stronger in this game than they were in real life.

Whatever Germany really, really wants from the UK (Malta/Egypt; Sea Lion; Spain) it appears to be nearly impossible to stop them from getting it in this game. Note: I'm still a newbie so I'm not qualified to say anything definitively.

All you can do is to make it as expensive and/or delay them for as long as possible so that the US and/or USSR can either save the day or make them pay for over investing against the UK. To do that, it helps
if you can figure out what their strategy is. How are they using their subs? What have they built (check the reports as well as what you see)? Where/how much are they investing in diplo? How much is spent on tech? (you can guess a bit if they buy one tech at a time based on what they spent). If you invest in spying/research you may sometimes get useful peek at a unit location that might provide a hint.

One idea mentioned above is to max out USSR mobilization at all costs.
Another (that I'm trying) was to (within reason) max out the delay of France's fall. This reduces German MPP, and if you last into August pretty much puts the kibosh on an early (1940) sea lion.

What to do with the UK is really hard. You have to build an ENG, you have to invest in Advance Aircraft and ASW and you have to build another HQ... all of these ASAP. You also have to build up all the less than full strength units and invest in other things.

If you are 100% sure he is going Sea Lion, then if you can put something (including GAR) on all the beaches (around London & Portsmouth) and neighboring hexes (to protect against paratroopers) then he has to use his air power to clear the landing hex, not to help kill the port defender. If he fails to kill the port defender then the landing unit will be OOS (out of supply) meaning another set of invaders. Note that it is expensive (particularly early in the game) to launch many invading craft. Also note that Amphibs only move 1 hex on the turn the unit sets on them, if you see them, bomb them. Ram Cruisers or better Motor Torpedo boats into them. Evacuate some strength to Northern Ireland, if he has to continue fighting there, maybe the USA will arrive in time and/or he won't have expensive units to face the Soviets.

Still like I said before if Germany really, really wants it they are going to get it.