Spotting and recon

[owe166]

Hello all, i was wondering if you could help me understand the spotting and recon system in WitP AE

For a bit of background info
Me and friend are playing the coral sea scenario to get familiar with the game. After a few turns of nothing a japanese task force suddenly appears. when i looked at it the TF was reported as a CVL,CVL and a... CVL. At first i refused to believe the information and sat on it for 2 more turns. Two more catalina flyovers and my pilots still reported 3 japanese CVL's sitting around doing nothing. I assumed my opponent brought Shoukaku and Zuikaku together with his CVL and the 2 other "CVLs" were just misidentified Shoukaku and Zuikaku. i decided to get aggressive and sent my CV TF into range and then the truth was revealed. Nothing more than a japanese landing force heading to port moresby.

After that little adventure i was wondering if any veteran could explain to me what went wrong here and the factors at play. So when me and my friend decided to jump into another scenario or full campaign i don't send Lexington and yorktown to waste a bunch of bombs on some IJA tin cans.

[Chris21wen]

ORIGINAL: owe166

Hello all, i was wondering if you could help me understand the spotting and recon system in WitP AE

For a bit of background info
Me and friend are playing the coral sea scenario to get familiar with the game. After a few turns of nothing a japanese task force suddenly appears. when i looked at it the TF was reported as a CVL,CVL and a... CVL. At first i refused to believe the information and sat on it for 2 more turns. Two more catalina flyovers and my pilots still reported 3 japanese CVL's sitting around doing nothing. I assumed my opponent brought Shoukaku and Zuikaku together with his CVL and the 2 other "CVLs" were just misidentified Shoukaku and Zuikaku. i decided to get aggressive and sent my CV TF into range and then the truth was revealed. Nothing more than a japanese landing force heading to port moresby.

After that little adventure i was wondering if any veteran could explain to me what went wrong here and the factors at play. So when me and my friend decided to jump into another scenario or full campaign i don't send Lexington and yorktown to waste a bunch of bombs on some IJA tin cans.

Fog of war plus inexperienced pilots panicking but even with experience identifying ships through cloud is not easy. You'll get lots more misinformation as the game proceeds but there's one thing for sure you'll know when the real Kido Butai turns up, you'll have no ships left[:D]

[Reg]

Before you can be an experienced commander you have to think like an experienced commander.

Are the contacts acting like a carrier task force??? How fast are they travelling and where do they appear to be heading??? Are your patrol planes disappearing without a trace???

You say you did two more Catalina flyovers, do you think that would be possible in the presence of three carriers worth of Zeros???

These are all hints provided by the game to help you peer through the fog of war and would have been all the real commanders had to go on.

Best of luck!!

[crsutton]

Coral Sea is an early war scenario so you can expect some serious FOW. That was actually the case with both sides. Factors that affect spotting and detection levels are, weather, experience, cameras, number of search planes over the target, type and quality of recon and probably a few more. If you get a report that concerns you then you need to put a lot of recon over the base and heavy naval search patterns over the area. Subs in the area if you got them, and if you have enough units, search at night as well. But expect heavy FOW until you get well trained searchers using radar and cameras. That does not really happen in 42.

[HansBolter]

and sinking an enemy invasion force that is proceeding without it's own air cover is NEVER a waste of bombs.

[Dili]

You almost always get search mistakes like in real war. And we are lucky we don't get neutral ships in game.

[spence]

And we are lucky we don't get neutral ships in game.

My father, who flew patrol bombers in the Atlantic during WW2, told me about an incident involving a freighter spotted by one of his squadron-mate' planes which ignored repeated signals from his a/c to identify itself. As the squadron intel reported that an unidentified (German) blockade-runner might be in the vicinity he fired his bow .50 cal into the water ahead of the ship which immediately hoisted a gigantic Swedish flag and hove to while he circled overhead. Ultimately the ship was identified as a verified Swedish (neutral) ship. Apparently that kept the squadron busy for the rest of the day while they maintained contact with the ship.

[owe166]

Thanks for the help guys. Now that i have a better understanding of this i can hopefully avoid the same mistake again.

Gonna make sure to train my pilots well in naval search in my upcoming PBEM campaign.

[geofflambert]

You need land based search planes to make all the mistakes before you commit your carriers, and the search planes on your carriers need to be very well trained before you commit them. Luckily for the Japanese, their carrier based search crews are pretty good, but if you use them to discover the enemy carriers, a lot of Dauntlesses and Avengers may already be airborne and headed for your mother ships. Heed my warning well. Unluckily for the Japanese, their non-carrier based search air crews are pretty crappy. Fix that. Do it right away.

[Dili]

ORIGINAL: spence

And we are lucky we don't get neutral ships in game.

My father, who flew patrol bombers in the Atlantic during WW2, told me about an incident involving a freighter spotted by one of his squadron-mate' planes which ignored repeated signals from his a/c to identify itself. As the squadron intel reported that an unidentified (German) blockade-runner might be in the vicinity he fired his bow .50 cal into the water ahead of the ship which immediately hoisted a gigantic Swedish flag and hove to while he circled overhead. Ultimately the ship was identified as a verified Swedish (neutral) ship. Apparently that kept the squadron busy for the rest of the day while they maintained contact with the ship.

Nice story spence.


Now for the OP, what if your air force bombed your own ships?

[geofflambert]

Something I don't understand or have any idea how it worked, even in theory, is how were any side's subs ever safe in waters patrolled by their own side? I know of one case of a US sub being sunk with all hands lost by US ASW, but that does not prove the rule or any rule. Apparently the sub in that case could have had or should have had an opportunity to signal friend or foe, but signalled nothing and dove. It was pursued and sunk by depth charge. How would ASW aircraft know whether a sighting was friend or foe?

[alimentary]

A trip to Google and a look at http://www.subsowespac.org/the-patrol-z ... ents.shtml reveals a number of techniques, none of which are foolproof.

Signal flares, VHF radio, sonar signals, colored lamps, assigned escorts, designated patrol zones and transit lanes.

[spence]

Now for the OP, what if your air force bombed your own ships?

the

Like the Swordfish torpedo bombers that went after HMS Sheffield thinking she was the Bismarck?

Also

The USCGC Modoc (neutral but sorta friendly looking for survivors of a British convoy ravaged by Uboats) was sighted, not immediately identified, and almost engaged by HMS Prince of Wales shortly after the historic battle between it (and HMS Hood) and and Bismarck. CGC Modoc found itself within 4-5 miles of both POW and Bismarck on opposite horizons in conditions of unsure visibility typical of the North Atlantic at that time of year.

[Chris21wen]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Something I don't understand or have any idea how it worked, even in theory, is how were any side's subs ever safe in waters patrolled by their own side? I know of one case of a US sub being sunk with all hands lost by US ASW, but that does not prove the rule or any rule. Apparently the sub in that case could have had or should have had an opportunity to signal friend or foe, but signalled nothing and dove. It was pursued and sunk by depth charge. How would ASW aircraft know whether a sighting was friend or foe?

By the class of the ship/sub followed by assumption and that's the difficult part. If it's dives you can't see it. Why did it dive, must have been an enemy. If it does't and it's misidentified, which happened often, then it's an ememy. Catch 22.

[Dili]

ORIGINAL: spence

Now for the OP, what if your air force bombed your own ships?

the

Like the Swordfish torpedo bombers that went after HMS Sheffield thinking she was the Bismarck?

Also

The USCGC Modoc (neutral but sorta friendly looking for survivors of a British convoy ravaged by Uboats) was sighted, not immediately identified, and almost engaged by HMS Prince of Wales shortly after the historic battle between it (and HMS Hood) and and Bismarck. CGC Modoc found itself within 4-5 miles of both POW and Bismarck on opposite horizons in conditions of unsure visibility typical of the North Atlantic at that time of year.

That works too, but was thinking of Italian bombers bombing their own ships in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Calabria