Suggestion for US & USSR Diplomacy Change

[Sugar]

So the best way to counter uberdiplo is to DoW a country you won't necessarily DoW and increase US/USSR mobilzation?

[KorutZelva]

ORIGINAL: Sugar

So the best way to counter uberdiplo is to DoW a country you won't necessarily DoW and increase US/USSR mobilzation?

Dow Belgium is like what? a 2-4% increase? Just saving one diplohit worth pays it back many times over. If you ain't gonna spend in counter diplo, you have to hustle.

[Sugar]

I don`t see any point in not countering uberdiplo, instead of the diplo costs you`ll spend it on operating just to achieve an earlier fall of France to prevent them from investing more on diplo, and whith doubtly outcome (even bad weather may disturb) and a guaranteed increase of SU and US mobilization and income.

You`ll also spare the german points in spanish diplo, the Brits are already fully committed; therefore there`s just the french chits working, leaving their forces in bad shape. And even with those 15% chance a hit on the US is not guaranteed before the fall of France; anyway there shouldn`t be more than 1 at all.

[KorutZelva]

ORIGINAL: Sugar

I don`t see any point in not countering uberdiplo, instead of the diplo costs you`ll spend it on operating just to achieve an earlier fall of France to prevent them from investing more on diplo, and whith doubtly outcome (even bad weather may disturb) and a guaranteed increase of SU and US mobilization and income.

You`ll also spare the german points in spanish diplo, the Brits are already fully committed; therefore there`s just the french chits working, leaving their forces in bad shape. And even with those 15% chance a hit on the US is not guaranteed before the fall of France; anyway there shouldn`t be more than 1 at all.

I'm not sure I quite got what you're trying to say here. I think you are saying you shouldn't rush and just max diplo with Germany and take the 15% chance reminder with France. One problem you face is that you don't know if it's a USA push or a USSR push until a hit triggers, and then you're playing catch-up when you probably don't have the cashflow to buy all 5 chits at once. They could have UK go for one and France for the other to throw you off scent too.

Making Germany sink 750 mp of their '39 spending in diplomacy is a gain of sort for the allies though since tech that would have been bought during the same period are essentially guaranteed to be ready for Barbarossa.

[Harrybanana]

I have just completed Turn 14 (January 20/40) in my game where I have invested in 7 Russia diplomacy chits (5 UK and 2 French). His early attack on France foiled my bid to buy 3 French chits. Unfortunately my luck has not been good. I scored a diplomacy hit with my first attempt with only a 15% chance. But since then I have had chances of 20%, 25%, 30%, 35% and 35% without any further hits. To make it worse the skies were clear for both of his December 1939 turns (so clear for 3 of the 4 turns he has been attacking so far). So I believe I will only last another 3 turns at best before France falls. This will be the earliest I have ever lost France in a game and possibly all for just a 10% Russian mobilization hit.

So for the moment anyway I am leaning towards my initial view that Uber-Diplomacy adds too much of a luck element to the game for my liking, but perhaps does not effect game balance.

[KorutZelva]

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

I have just completed Turn 14 (January 20/40) in my game where I have invested in 7 Russia diplomacy chits (5 UK and 2 French). His early attack on France foiled my bid to buy 3 French chits. Unfortunately my luck has not been good. I scored a diplomacy hit with my first attempt with only a 15% chance. But since then I have had chances of 20%, 25%, 30%, 35% and 35% without any further hits. To make it worse the skies were clear for both of his December 1939 turns (so clear for 3 of the 4 turns he has been attacking so far). So I believe I will only last another 3 turns at best before France falls. This will be the earliest I have ever lost France in a game and possibly all for just a 10% Russian mobilization hit.

So for the moment anyway I am leaning towards my initial view that Uber-Diplomacy adds too much of a luck element to the game for my liking, but perhaps does not effect game balance.

Clear air-Clear Land or Clear air -Snow land?

The former happens but is quite rare, the later might be the usual outcome.

[BillRunacre]

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

Really, I thought all minors had a 3 maximum chit limit. But admittedly the only ones I have ever tried to influence are Spain, Turkey and Arabia. I continue to learn this game. This all really should be in the Rules though.

The default number of chits that can be invested is five, admittedly that isn't listed in the Manual, but lesser numbers of chits can be invested by some countries against Spain, Ireland and Switzerland, see sections 10.3. to 10.5.

[BillRunacre]

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

Bill, I'm a little surprised that you and Hubert don't consider this an issue.

I'm rather interested in seeing how the discussion goes, following the threads is often the best way for us to learn if something is an issue or not. With enough input we can then see if it's something that needs changing, or something that may give good results from time to time, but like with betting, only a risk taker will likely take the plunge. If the latter then I'd be inclined to leave things as they are, as having a little room for the gambler in the game is no bad thing. [:)]

[Sugar]

One problem you face is that you don't know if it's a USA push or a USSR push until a hit triggers, and then you're playing catch-up when you probably don't have the cashflow to buy all 5 chits at once.

Is that really an issue? I would also gamble and invest all the chits into Russia, then wait if the guess was right. Russia is far more dangerous than the US are, and after my own chits are firing, I´d beginning to change to the US, and when Italy joins, they can invest also into the Us. The next cheaper chits I'd put into Spain with Germany reducing their commitment. Imho that would be more efficient than operating into winter and taking a hit at US and SU by DoWing Belgium; and the investments are partially compensated by less losses and a quicker conquer of France. I guess those actions will hurt brit. economy more badly than german, they already have an army.

Diplo investments always force the opponent to counter, that`s part of the game. The outcome isn't predictable, but manageable I guess.

having a little room for the gambler in the game is no bad thing.

I highly appreciate your comment! [&o]

[KorutZelva]

ORIGINAL: Sugar

One problem you face is that you don't know if it's a USA push or a USSR push until a hit triggers, and then you're playing catch-up when you probably don't have the cashflow to buy all 5 chits at once.

Is that really an issue? I would also gamble and invest all the chits into Russia, then wait if the guess was right. Russia is far more dangerous than the US are, and after my own chits are firing, I´d beginning to change to the US, and when Italy joins, they can invest also into the Us. The next cheaper chits I'd put into Spain with Germany reducing their commitment. Imho that would be more efficient than operating into winter and taking a hit at US and SU by DoWing Belgium; and the investments are partially compensated by less losses and a quicker conquer of France. I guess those actions will hurt brit. economy more badly than german, they already have an army.

Diplo investments always force the opponent to counter, that`s part of the game. The outcome isn't predictable, but manageable I guess.

Errrrr... I'm not sure doubling up on both USSR and USA is more efficient or hurt the UK more. All that to avoid a measly 2-4% increase from Belgium? That's seems overkill. HarryB can testify that the '39 Blitz works just fine. [;)]

[Sugar]

There wouldn`t be a doubling up, Germany would sink the same amount of MPPs as Britain, + 3 chits for Spain. That`s not to avoid a DoW on Belgium, but an early US joining. The lacking DoW is a benefit, weak Frenchmen and Brits are others. Especially the Brits are playing an important role early in the war, the risk is to lose Egypt and with it the war. Germany has enough units to defeat them anyway, every missing brit. unit or tech will hurt. If an allied opponent wants to risk it and gamble, he`s very welcome. In my so far 52 PbEMs I faced every kind of allied strategy, and I was able to manage them all.

HarryB can testify that the '39 Blitz works just fine.

How many turns earlier happens the Fall of France this way, and is it worth the effort, that`s the question. It`s not related to the uberdiplo.

[Leadwieght]

I can see where it would frustrating if your opponent moves USSR mobilization on a 5% or 10% chance and wrecks your Barbarossa plans, but that's pretty rare. Most of the time the Allies have to invest the max to get a decent chance of moving the USA/USSR and spending 1100 French and British MPPs comes with a tremendous opportunity cost. I'm in a game now where my opponent (who is very good) did that. Sure, Russia DoWed in May 1941, but in the meantime, I have taken all of France, gotten Spain on my side, taken Gibraltar, and will probably take Egypt by the end of 1941. I also have several more turns of good weather to advance in Russia before winter hits. I may still lose, but I still think I'm in a better position than I would have been if he had invested those MPPs in Allied units

I like having the maximum possibility of pursuing asymmetric strategies; it's what keeps the game fresh for me. So I hope the Major Powers diplo parameters remain unchanged.

[KorutZelva]

ORIGINAL: Sugar

How many turns earlier happens the Fall of France this way, and is it worth the effort, that`s the question. It`s not related to the uberdiplo.

You can get it about end of March (HarryB, Leadweight might be able to confirm). If we use my current AAR as the measuring stick, that would be 6 turn earlier than 'normal'.

[Sugar]

Fine. It was a rhetorical question, and she was "Is it worth the effort?". Every strategy has her pros and cons, it`s in every players hand to decide; but imho there`s no better allied strategy than to make the Brits in NA as strong as possible, and vice versa for the Axis. Does uberdiplo help here? I doubt it.

[KorutZelva]

ORIGINAL: Leadwieght

I like having the maximum possibility of pursuing asymmetric strategies; it's what keeps the game fresh for me.

It does indeed. In the ye olden time when I was but a strapping young lad during the days of SC yore, people didn't stray much (successfully) from the 'cookie cutter' strategy (DOW Spain was part of the cookie cutter if you can believe that!). It was just the way the game was then in these simpler times. I feel like the average level of play was higher then but more focused on ruthlessly efficient application of said cookie cutter. You could see the odd ball strategy here and there but mostly in lower level of play (or in an attempt to break the game like having Italy insta-surrender from DOW and amphibiously taking Rome).

One might get their kicks of playing over and over what they consider the best play. For me, I just want to explore the wide variety of viable strategies. It's just so much fun to discover and to tinker with them.

[Taxman66]

I sympathize, but don't really want to what see games that are effectively 'over' by mid/late 1940 on what amounts to little more than a half dozen dice rolls.

[KorutZelva]

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

I sympathize, but don't really want to what see games that are effectively 'over' by mid/late 1940 on what amounts to little more than a half dozen dice rolls.

That should only happens so disastrously if you don't counter them correctly. I can see 'Uber-Diplo' getting some rotation time the same way 'All of France' and 'Sealion' are getting used right now. Not the norm but not completely uncommon.

[Sugar]

I sympathize, but don't really want to what see games that are effectively 'over' by mid/late 1940 on what amounts to little more than a half dozen dice rolls.

Gambling is the opposite of planning. But it`s the opportunity for a poor man (like the Brits are in this game) to increase their chances. They'll have to be lucky, otherwise they'll notice the Axis to have more time to use their own diplo chits against them.

One might get their kicks of playing over and over what they consider the best play.

We're discussing the pros and cons of that strategy, and if it's necessary to change some of the mechanics. This strategy has its advantages, but they're highly depending on luck. It also has its disadvantages, which are guaranteed. I like to have the opportunity, we`re still playing a game, but if I'm asked if it pays off, I would answer: usually not.

I see another issue: getting Spain into the Axis is too easy. Maybe sometimes diplo isn`t working in time, but the Axis still has the opportunity to invite Franco via DE after conquering Algeria. The required 30% leaning are easily achieved, and the only way for the Allies to counter is to occupy Casablanca; usually they won`t be able to achieve more than a delay at this stage of the war.

The costs for the DE are ridicoulosly low, compared to the strategical and military advantages.

[KorutZelva]

ORIGINAL: Sugar

We're discussing the pros and cons of that strategy, and if it's necessary to change some of the mechanics.

We are, we are... but that comment was in response to leadweight profession of love for the game and its many possibilities. But I digress...

Won't dispute that the uber-diplo need to meet the expected average number of hits to be worth it (which some heathens call luck [:D]) but in fairness... so is your proposed counter if you think about it. You're banking on hits will be timely to be available for a transfer to the USA. And each subsequent chits should also take more time to be available again because the odds drops down by 5%.

Trying to pivot to Spain after that seems superfluous. You already invested deeper in diplo, more so than just a pure defensive play because you have to replenish your diplohit unlike when they are just reducing the other guy %. Waiting for the chits to free up again would delay getting Spaniard so much you might as well go the Algerian route. As the added benefit to protect you on the off chance USA joins, as they would be able to shut you off from Spain diplomatically with their 7% chits.

To use your terminology, that's facing 'gambling' with 'gambling'. A viable gamble but not quite a martingale. [;)]

'39 Blitz, buddy. That's what the cool kids do. [8D]

Getting Spain into the axis is easy but at the same time, the power balance of the game it's kind of expected for the Axis to get it to have a shot a winning. I wonder what's the % of Axis victory out there with Spain still neutral. Must be quite low. I'd let germany get the total spanish mpp in trade after france fall. That way the diplo push would only be used for those that want access to the spanish unit and a path to Gibraltar but wouldn't increase the income received. That way it would no longer be a life or death necessity to have franco join, I think.

My personal peeve would probably having London as an objective instead of Manchester. London is too vulnerable to a blitz bombing and paradrop which means that all high level of play (say Sugar vs Taifun) like you said the litmus test is whether Cairo falls or not.

[Sugar]

Diplo action allways forces the opponent to counter, therefore it`s just a question of time you`ll have to invest. Being the first to invest is better in every case. That`s not a gamble, it`s inevitable. As Axis player I wouldn`t invest in SU or US diplo, but if I`m forced to do, well, that's fine, even if it leads to a forced rush all the way to Casablanca. My counter would prevent the SU from joining too soon, providing the needed timeframe, if my few diplo investments into Spain don`t fire.

I don`t know about the balancing without the opportunity to get Spain into the Axis, I always did, and I was able to win in early autumn of 42 mostly. That`s a little early imho, if not to say unbalanced, and so far most of my opponents agreed.

The strategical meaning of Cairo is a matter of fact in the european theatre, I highly appreciate this is reflected in a strategy game.

'39 Blitz, buddy. That's what the cool kids do.

Gladly I`m at an age not to care any longer listening to "what the cool kids do". I guess winning is cool, and I bet most of the players would agree, even more, if it happens in a well balanced game.