Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues

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Dreamslayer
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RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues

Post by Dreamslayer »

ORIGINAL: johntoml56

This TOE matches Askey about 99%. It is also stated that a Mech Corp had an average of only 288 motorcycles in June 1941.
I think real average numbers was even lesser.


Also I see a problem with the fact that Soviet units have too many trucks, some of them have even excess.
Also Soviet units getting fuel,trucks,supply,replacement too fast. It is about the first year of the war. Later the supply situation was improved. But for first year there is need something like ammo penalties for others aspectc of supply(fuel,trucks,supply,replacement).

For fuel,trucks it can be something like only 90% maximum of needed per turn and minus additional 10% if unit failed admin rating check.
Also if unit failed admin rating check it can only receive 90% supply.

Replacement.
Some people too worry about fact Soviet units mainly do not have full level of their real wartime TOE. And because of this actual unit TOE starts to reduce.
How to resolve this. Let it be real wartime Soviet units TOE. But need to create difficulties to obtain replacement.
E.g., Motorcycle Regiment at start of the war have actual TOE 1417 men, but replacement can gain only up to 75% if have lesser it. If already have 75% then can gain additional 5-10% per turn, etc.
Of course certain numbers can be somewhat different, need some tests and discusses. But my general vision and suggestion is about this.

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RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues

Post by Denniss »

Do you have info about later addition of tanks or did it stay with this organization during the whole war?
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56ajax
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RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues

Post by 56ajax »

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Do you have info about later addition of tanks or did it stay with this organization during the whole war?

Some minor changes in late 1941 saw the addition of 4 T27a tankettes and in about March 1943 16 T70s or 10 T34s. See ' Companion to the Red Army' by Zaloga, page 97. (This is what Askey quotes with a minor error).
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RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues

Post by Dreamslayer »

Sorry, I can't say accurate date of this TOE, probably 1943.

Motorcycle Regiment (1943?)
Shtat #010/433:
1188 men
10 T-34 or Valentine IX
13 “Scouts”
5 M2 Mk.I “Universal”
3 BA-64
214 motocycles

It not full list, because there was also mortars,MG-squads and AT-guns.

Structure:
HQ
Motocycle batallion
AT-battalion
Tank company
Mortar company
MG-company
Car company
Support squads

With rare exceptions Motorcycle Regiments of Mech corps was disbanded during 1941 or reformed to infantry/moto-infantry regiments.
chaos45
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RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues

Post by chaos45 »

good information to get soviet organization closer to historical.
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RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues

Post by Dreamslayer »

Some missed PVO regiments:

474th – Vyborg
744th – Grozny

746th in the game located in Makeevka, correct location is Balakleya(around Kharkov)

PVO regiments of Baltic Fleet:
3rd, 4th – Tallinn(main Fleet base before 30 August,1941)
2nd ,6th – Oranienbaum
1st – Kronstadt(main Fleet base from 30 August.1941) , no at map but maybe will be in the WITE 2
5th – Paldiski(port west from Tallinn, currently not presented too)

PVO regiments of Black See Fleet:
61th – Sevastopol(main Fleet base)
73th – Odessa
122th – Nikolaev

For Fleet PVO units better to have in their names “KBF/ChF” , that there would be no confusion with the usual RKKA PVO units. E.g. there are 2nd PVO regiment in Riga and 2nd PVO regiment of KBF in Oranienbaum.

I'll try to provide info about PVO regiments TOE. Because there is difference in the presence of AA guns, 24-36-60-100 76-85mm.
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RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues

Post by Denniss »

Lookingh at the Niehorster site there may be a lot of AAA units missing or misplaced
http://niehorster.org/012_ussr/41_oob/__stavka_41.html
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RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues

Post by Dreamslayer »

PVO regiments

At start of the war PVO regiments has various compositions.
The most numerous were the PVO regiments of the most important centers – Moscow,Leningrad and Baku. These centers has their own PVO corps:
1st PVO corps – Moscow (6 regiments)
2nd PVO corps – Leningrad (6 regiments)
3rd PVO corps – Baku (4 regiments)

Approximate number of guns of each regiment, taking into account other units(e.g. Separate batallions or AA-MG regiments) of the corps:
100 medium AA-guns, 12 light AA-guns ,38,5 AA-MG.

PVO regiments of PVO divisions:
3rd PVO division – Kiev (2 regiments)
4th PVO division – Lvov (2 regiments)

Approximate number of guns of each regiment, taking into account other units(e.g. Separate batallions or AA-MG regiments) of the divisions:
60 medium, 12 light ,33 AA-MG.

PVO regiments of PVO brigades:
7th PVO brigade – Minsk
8th - Batumi
9th - Khabarovsk
10th - Riga
11th - Drogobych
12th - Kaunas
13th - Grodno
14th - Vilnius
15th – Odessa
Each PVO brigade has 1 PVO regiment.

With account of AA-MG battalions each regiment had :
60 medium, 12 light, 27 AA-MG.

Separate PVO regiments (3-battalion composition):
16th PVO regiment – Zaporozhye
748th – Dnepropetrovsk
415th – Tbilisi
749th – Komsomolsk-on-Amur

With account of AA-MG companies each regiment had :
36 medium ,12 light ,27 AA-MG.

Separate PVO regiments (2-battalion composition):
All others PVO regiments.

With account of AA-MG companies each regiment had :
24 medium ,8 light ,18 AA-MG.

Perhaps PVO units of Soviet Fleets has slightly different TOE, I'll try to check this some time.

So, as you can see there are 5 categories of various PVO regiments. In the game for convenience they can be summarized in 4 categories. E.g.:
a) of PVO corps - TOE(100/12/36)
b) of PVO brigades and divisions – TOE(60/12/27)
c) PVO regiments (3-battalion composition) – TOE(36/12/27)
d) PVO regiments (2-battalion composition) – TOE(24/8/18)

I have another one my abnormal idea.
This PVO units can only be assigned to cities.
Probably, for smaller ones it is necessary to remove the AP cost, and for larger ones it is necessary to raise and add the use RR capacity, as via the evacuation of factories.
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RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues

Post by Denniss »

Thanks for the Info. Some comments:
PVO AA units look like only assignable to HQs and cities, don't know if they may leased for ground combat (should not).
We can't model all compositions of the PVO units, these will have to be handled with understrength units or splitting into heavy/light Bns
Current available OBs:
41 PVO AA Rgt with 100x medium, 8x 37, 25x 12.7 and 20x 7.62 quad
43 PVO AA Rgt with 100x medium, 36x 37, 25x 12.7
41 PVO AA Bn with 20x medium, 5x 12.7
43 PVO AA Bn with 20x medium, 8x 37, 5x 12.7
41 Hvy AA Bn with 12x medium, 2x 12.7, 3x 7.62 quad
43 Hvy AA Bn with 16x medium, 4x 12.7
41 Light AA Rgt with 12x 37, 8x 12.7, 12x 7.62 quad
43 Light AA Rgt with 16x 37, 16x 12.7
43 AA Bde with 16x medium, 48x 37, 52x 12.7
44 AA Bde with 16x medium, 72x 37, 52x 12.7

The AA Bdes are supposed to represent the AA Divs attached to armies
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56ajax
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RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues

Post by 56ajax »

Just remember with the PVOs they were typically intended to protect an installation or city. Many of the guns would have been in fixed positions and the units would have been lacking most of their trucks. So if they get over run practically no guns would get away.

Merry Christmas.
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Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.

C'est la guerre aérienne
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RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues

Post by Dreamslayer »

Separate PVO batallions 1941

There was 2 versions:
1)4 batteries + AA-MG company (12 medium,4 light,9 AA-MG)
2)3 batteries (8 medium, 4 light)

Denniss
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RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues

Post by Denniss »

The PVO units may already be treated as static units if attached to cities, Editor implies this with zero truck requirement at cities while many are required if attached to HQs.
They also seem to cost twice the AP of Army AA units to detach from cities, I really wish an info would pop up showing the AP cost and asking for confirmation.
morvael may provide some additional info.

Really sad the niehorster site does not provide this level of detail regarding composition of the Soviet AA units, at least we have some basic info about unit names/numbers.

EDIT: and the further into the war the less information of attached units is available. 43/44 campaigns do not really look right with army AA Rgts attached to Moscow
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RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues

Post by Dreamslayer »

Hanko Base garrison.

In the addition to Hanko Garrison Brigade vs 8th Rifle Brigade

8th Special Rifle brigade:
270th rifle rgt(2700 men, battery 76mm guns,battery 45mm AT-guns,platoon 120mm mortars)
335th rifle rgt(2700 men, battery 76mm guns,battery 45mm AT-guns,platoon 120mm mortars)
343th artillery rgt(btn 76mm guns,btn 122mm howitzers,btn 152mm gun-howitzers; total 36 guns)
297th tank btn (33 T-26 and 11 tankettes)
42th sapper btn
204th separate AA btn (12 76mm AA-guns)
support squads

Others units in the base:
18th,93th,236th PVO btn of KBF(total 36 76mm AA-guns)
2 AA-MG companies (26 M-4)

219th Sapper btn
51th,145th,93th,94th Construction btn
124th Engineer btn
21th Road btn
101th and 296 Consruction companies

Various coastal defense guns of different caliber (305,180,130,100 mm).

The total strength of the Hanko military base was 25,300 combatants. Along with the civilian population, there were about 30,000 people on the peninsula.

During the war, the garrison was replenished with one machine-gun company, 46th construction batallion(1100 men) ,300 reserve troops, 500 Estonians called for mobilization, and 530 soldiers evacuated from the island of Hiiuma.
Almost all civilians and some small construction units were evacuated in the first days of the war.
The complete evacuation of the base began on October 23.

My suggestion for OOB Hanko base garrison in the game:
leave only one unit there - 8th Rifle Brigade (PVO batallions attached to city can stays too). But fully rebuild TOE of this unit. Temporary add to it Sapper btn,Tank btn and AA btn. Make next TOE change for this unit in the August or September to the standart Rifle brigade.

Historically 8th Rifle brigade was reformed to 136th Rifle division in the March 1942.
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RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues

Post by Denniss »

we can't change/strengthen the Hanko garrison as the AI would then fail to break it, then it gets ignored leading to a 1941 finnish surrender from freely moving soviet units.
I'm sure your information will be valuable for WitE2.
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RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues

Post by Dreamslayer »

ORIGINAL: Denniss

we can't change/strengthen the Hanko garrison as the AI would then fail to break it, then it gets ignored leading to a 1941 finnish surrender from freely moving soviet units.
I'm sure your information will be valuable for WitE2.
But does not AI have a bonus when attacking Hanko or Brest-Litovsk?
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RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues

Post by Denniss »

Yes but it's not alway sufficient to break Hanko. It usually tries to attack for ~ 3 turns then moves on further east, ignoring any active unit in Hanko.
The AI has a general problem with cleaning-out leftover units, you'll often see multiple leftover unit on the western front "guarded" by construction Bns.
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RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues

Post by Dreamslayer »

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Yes but it's not alway sufficient to break Hanko. It usually tries to attack for ~ 3 turns then moves on further east, ignoring any active unit in Hanko.
The AI has a general problem with cleaning-out leftover units, you'll often see multiple leftover unit on the western front "guarded" by construction Bns.
Then its can be solved by reducing fort level to 2 or excluding Hanko from the Finland surrending check list.
No point to have there mythical FRs and Sapper regiments.
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RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues

Post by Denniss »

AFAIr the AI ignores for levels in Hanko because of this problem. Hanko does not trigger FIN surrender, it's the units shipped-in from Leningrad that freely move in finland capturing multiple cities up to Helsinki.
AI is simply unable to clean-out leftover units behind main frontline. Plus multiple problems in finnish area, seen from mid 42 with withdrawal of several units typically employed at the Leningrad front, most FIN units stay at eastern side o lake even if soviets advance into FIN mainland
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RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues

Post by Dreamslayer »

ORIGINAL: Denniss

AFAIr the AI ignores for levels in Hanko because of this problem. Hanko does not trigger FIN surrender, it's the units shipped-in from Leningrad that freely move in finland capturing multiple cities up to Helsinki.
AI is simply unable to clean-out leftover units behind main frontline. Plus multiple problems in finnish area, seen from mid 42 with withdrawal of several units typically employed at the Leningrad front, most FIN units stay at eastern side o lake even if soviets advance into FIN mainland
What about withdrawal/disband date for 8th Rifle brigade then? Its can be Sep/Oct , up to this date Finns
units around Hanko can be frozen for prevent soviet advance there.
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RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues

Post by Dreamslayer »

Kiev M.D.units setup.

Looks like locations and partially subordination of units for this M.D. a bit far away from
thesis "it is position for the night 21-22 June".

Simple example with movements of 8th Mech corps.
Before start of the war this corps was subordinated to 26th Army.

Locations of units before start of the war:
8th Mech corps HQ(with corps support units)and 7th Motorized division - Drogobych
12th Tank division - Stryi
34th Tank division - Sudovaya Vishnya

On 5:30 units was raised by battle alarm and performs tasks of orders according to cover plans - towards evening concentrates
around Sambor as reserve of 26th Army.
On 20:40 corps was ordered by SW Front Command for night movement to south-east of Lvov for be ready to counter-attack
motorized enemy units in the direction of Brody. By this order corps was reassigned to 6th Army.
From 23:00-24:00 units starts movement to east.

But positions of corps units looks similar to 26 June or something.


So. Two things - locations of some units incorrect or thesis "it is position for the night 21-22 June" does not work.

Some info about units of Kiev M.D. locations and subordinations (that are different from actual, imho):

22th Mech corps
HQ, 19th TD and 215th MD - Rovno
41th TD - Vladimir-Volynsky(41th Moto-rifle rgt - Lyuboml)

9th Mech corps
HQ, 131th MD, 35th TD - Novgorod-Volynsky
20th TD - between Shepetovka and Slavuta

19th Mech corps
HQ and 43th TD - Berdichev
40th TD - Zhitomir
213th MD - Vinnitsa

15th Mech corps - subordinated directly to Kiev M.D.
HQ and 212th - Brody
10th TD - Zolochev
37th TD - Kremenets(37th moto-rifle rgt - Berezhany)

4th Mech corps
both TD closer to Lvov

16th Mech corp
HQ - Kamenets-Podolsky

24th Mech corps
45th TD - Yarmolnitsy
49th TD - Starokonstantinov
216th MD - Proskurov

5th Cavalry corps - subordinated directly to Kiev M.D.
HQ and 14th Cavalry division - Slavuta
3th Cavalry division - subordinated to 6th Army

37th Rifle corps - subordinated directly to Kiev M.D.
HQ and units - between Proskurov and Tarnopol on movement to west

36th Rifle corps
HQ and units - between Shepetovka and Starokonstantinov on movement to west
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