Use of Subs v Surface Ships

[PeteGarnett]

My opponent (Vanman) & I do not follow how to use subs against surface ships.

Case in point is where I selected sub combat using 4 of my 6 surprise points and whilst we both expected the subs to be at risk against the surface fleet we also thought that they would have a chance to do some damage. I just lost both subs and had no chance to hit any of opposing ships.

Seems like subs are only there for attacking convoys.

BTW I selected sub combat as I was seriously out-gunned for a surface combat.

Wonder if we are missing something in the rules or just not understanding the point of subs. Was I right to use them as they are cheap compared to risking my surface ships?

Any thoughts folks ......

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: PeteGarnett

My opponent (Vanman) & I do not follow how to use subs against surface ships.

Case in point is where I selected sub combat using 4 of my 6 surprise points and whilst we both expected the subs to be at risk against the surface fleet we also thought that they would have a chance to do some damage. I just lost both subs and had no chance to hit any of opposing ships.

Seems like subs are only there for attacking convoys.

BTW I selected sub combat as I was seriously out-gunned for a surface combat.

Wonder if we are missing something in the rules or just not understanding the point of subs. Was I right to use them as they are cheap compared to risking my surface ships?

Any thoughts folks ......

RAW:

During surface naval combat each included Sub’s attack factor is
reduced by 1.

This is probably what you are looking for...

[PeteGarnett]

Thanks Peter - missed that.

[alexvand]

You need more than 6 surprise points to actually do damage to surface ships. 7 actually.

4 to select sub combat, then 3 to change the target from convoys to one of the surface ships. Any damage done in sub combat by subs is only done to convoys unless you use surprise points to change it.

With anything less than 7 surprise points and non convoys to sink you should probably just avoid the combat all together to keep your subs from being sunk for no purpose.

Alternatively you could pick surface combat although your combat factors are incredibly low. But you could use 2 surprise points to up you damage and then use 3 more to choose the target you want. With the 6 you had that might have been a better chance for you to do some kind of damage. Would still have resulted in your subs being sunk though.

[michaelbaldur]

but the rules are a little lacking here. the big capital ships were really vulnerable to subs.

[paulderynck]

You cannot use sub combat against surface ships by spending surprise points unless:
a) the surface ships you want to attack are in the zero box, and
b) there is at least one enemy CP there as well

Because in sub combat there is no further combat if there are no CPs left.

So for the tactic where you spend 7 surprise to go after a surface ship it's usually 4 surprise to pick a surface combat (as opposed to naval air) and 3 to pick a target. If a naval air is out of the picture, then you only need 3 surprise.

The big misunderstanding is that sub combat does not mean submarines attacking with torpedoes, it means submarines attacking CPs. If subs and surface ships have combat, it is termed "surface combat" but that does not mean the subs are fighting while surfaced.

[Courtenay]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

You cannot use sub combat against surface ships by spending surprise points unless:
a) the surface ships you want to attack are in the zero box, and
b) there is at least one enemy CP there as well

Because in sub combat there is no further combat if there are no CPs left.

So for the tactic where you spend 7 surprise to go after a surface ship it's usually 4 surprise to pick a surface combat (as opposed to naval air) and 3 to pick a target. If a naval air is out of the picture, then you only need 3 surprise.

The big misunderstanding is that sub combat does not mean submarines attacking with torpedoes, it means submarines attacking CPs. If subs and surface ships have combat, it is termed "surface combat" but that does not mean the subs are fighting while surfaced.

The opposing ships do not have to be in the zero box. If a ship is in the combat, it can be picked using surprise points whatever box it is in.

Also, I don't believe that any convoy points need to be in the sea area. If none are, you would have to spend 4 surprise points to pick a sub combat, but you could, and then designate a target with three more. This might be more effective than a surface combat, particularly against a bunch of BBs.

[paulderynck]

This has been discussed with the designer over and over and over and your signature closing applies.

It's probably worded better in RAW8 than in RAW7 but the intent was always as I stated.

[paulderynck]

Here is the RAW8 wording which was decided after a great deal of discussion on the issue:

11.5.7 The choice
Both sides will fight the same type of combat. You make the choice according to this priority:
1. You may choose the combat type if you spend 4 surprise points. If you choose a combat type that doesn’t involve any combat (e.g. air-to-air combat with no aircraft included or sub combat with no CPs included) go back to step 2 in the combat sequence (see 11.5.1)

And from 11.5.10 Submarine Combat:

The SUBs also attack in the same way as a surface naval combat except that they use the SUB row of the naval combat chart and only enemy naval units in the 0 sea-box section count as ‘Enemy Ships’.

Once there are no further convoys to suffer losses, all remaining losses inflicted by the subs are ignored.

The original intent in RAW7 of the 11.5.7 section mentioning a choice of submarine combat for 4 surprise points was so you could search again rather than call the combat off. You might want to do this because although you got the surprise points, you didn't like the combination of which units were included versus which enemy units were included. FREX you include only a FTR in the 3 box that has no A2S factors but if your two box can get in, you will slaughter the enemy forces. Of course in this case the enemy could abort the sea zone before the next search - that's the gamble you take.

[Centuur]

But in RAW7 (which is tbe base for MWIF), it is perfectly allright to chose other boxes added to the zero box. You can therefore spend surprise points to get at the juicy carrier in the 1 box during submarine combat...

RAW:

1. You can choose the combat type if you spend 4 surprise points.
You can even choose a combat type not normally allowed (e.g.
SUB combat even if no enemy convoy points are included);
2. You can choose to make it a naval air combat (active side
decides first) if you have an aircraft unit or undamaged CV
(CVPiF/SiF option 56: with a carrier plane) included and the
weather in the sea area is neither storm nor blizzard;
3. If it is not a naval air combat, you can choose to make it a
submarine combat (active side decides first) if you have a SUB
included and your opponent has any convoy points included; or
4. If it is neither a naval air combat nor a submarine combat, it is a
surface combat.
You can choose a combat type that won’t produce a combat.

There is no mentioning of having to include only the zero box in RAW7 or in the FAQ of RAW7.

[brian brian]

If you try the choice of Sub Combat without CPs, your SUBs will attack with their higher, printed factors, but will have a harder time generating quantity of results because:

"If no convoy points are included (only possible if you spent surprise points to choose a submarine combat ~ see 11.5.7) then you fight on the ‘0’ ships row."



I will never forget a sad experience I had trying to help a new player who had just started as the USA player in one of the Pacific scenarios. Staring at the map with counters all over it and all of his ships still in port, he asked me what he should do next. I told him he should pick some sea areas to either attack with his ships, or defend with his ships - you are the Commander-in-Chief now. I got the impression he had never commanded a cardboard ship before, or the lack of hexagons to move them on had fairly well made his wheels fall off. I have always thought a fair number of WiF players want to command the Wehrmacht or the Red Army and would rather go to the dentist than play a Major Power with a lot of naval units.

The Japanese player had already moved some units, and had parked a SUB in the zone right off of Pearl Harbor. "What about the enemy submarines?", the new player asked. I told him they could intercept but their overall odds of success were fairly low, and he could move ships out together for a single risk, or move them one at a time, explained Intercept vs. deciding to keep moving through, etc. He elected to send out the Lexington, all by itself. The Japanese rolled a 1 to intercept. He chose to "fight through", rolled a 10 for his search dice, and the Lexington was promptly sunk.

[brian brian]

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


but the rules are a little lacking here. the big capital ships were really vulnerable to subs.

I agree with this in that the historical SUBs sank a lot more capital ships than you typically see in a game of WiF - sort of. The Royal Navy almost lost the Ark Royal in the first weeks of the war when a spread of German torpedoes failed to explode correctly; the Courageous was not so lucky a few days later; the Ark Royal's fate lay 2 years in to the future.

Anyhow, WiF players don't generally command SUBs quite the same way the historical navies did; the Major Powers had different doctrines for this. So results by the SUBs can be a little deceiving. The players of all countries tend to operate SUBs in a "U-Boat" style (also how the USN largely operated) and by that I mean they send SUBs out to zones on their own, and expect results from them.

Only some of the historical navies did this and for the most part the IJN did not, though they had their successes against USN capital ships. Other times the SUBs largely went out as part of operations involving surface ships simultaneously. So when the Kriegsmarine tangled with the Royal Navy during the Norwegian campaign, both sides used their submarines and achieved various mostly minor results with them in a way that, in WiF, would have them in zones and even sea boxes right alongside their other naval counters, something rarely seen playing WiF. Even the Royal Navy's attacks on Axis shipping in the Med involved plenty of surface activity rather than just SUB counters as you might see in WiF. The historical navies were still learning and evolving their submarine tactics - and most importantly, the key detail of how submarines could communicate.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

If you try the choice of Sub Combat without CPs, your SUBs will attack with their higher, printed factors, but will have a harder time generating quantity of results because:

"If no convoy points are included (only possible if you spent surprise points to choose a submarine combat ~ see 11.5.7) then you fight on the ‘0’ ships row."



I will never forget a sad experience I had trying to help a new player who had just started as the USA player in one of the Pacific scenarios. Staring at the map with counters all over it and all of his ships still in port, he asked me what he should do next. I told him he should pick some sea areas to either attack with his ships, or defend with his ships - you are the Commander-in-Chief now. I got the impression he had never commanded a cardboard ship before, or the lack of hexagons to move them on had fairly well made his wheels fall off. I have always thought a fair number of WiF players want to command the Wehrmacht or the Red Army and would rather go to the dentist than play a Major Power with a lot of naval units.

The Japanese player had already moved some units, and had parked a SUB in the zone right off of Pearl Harbor. "What about the enemy submarines?", the new player asked. I told him they could intercept but their overall odds of success were fairly low, and he could move ships out together for a single risk, or move them one at a time, explained Intercept vs. deciding to keep moving through, etc. He elected to send out the Lexington, all by itself. The Japanese rolled a 1 to intercept. He chose to "fight through", rolled a 10 for his search dice, and the Lexington was promptly sunk.

Well, to be honest: I'm still struggling with the naval system of WiF. I always say that there are no good admirals, only lucky or unlucky ones. Sure, you can handle things good enough to always send out ships with the necessary cruiser (or BB) escorts to minimize damage, but even than the dreaded 10 and 1 search rolls will make sure that the enemy gets you with your pants down.
Strangely enough: that's what happened with a lot of admirals in WW II. And some of those were considered very good ones too...

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

But in RAW7 (which is tbe base for MWIF), it is perfectly allright to chose other boxes added to the zero box. You can therefore spend surprise points to get at the juicy carrier in the 1 box during submarine combat...

RAW:

1. You can choose the combat type if you spend 4 surprise points.
You can even choose a combat type not normally allowed (e.g.
SUB combat even if no enemy convoy points are included);
2. You can choose to make it a naval air combat (active side
decides first) if you have an aircraft unit or undamaged CV
(CVPiF/SiF option 56: with a carrier plane) included and the
weather in the sea area is neither storm nor blizzard;
3. If it is not a naval air combat, you can choose to make it a
submarine combat (active side decides first) if you have a SUB
included and your opponent has any convoy points included; or
4. If it is neither a naval air combat nor a submarine combat, it is a
surface combat.
You can choose a combat type that won’t produce a combat.

There is no mentioning of having to include only the zero box in RAW7 or in the FAQ of RAW7.

Peter, you are missing the point. As I said, based on discussions with the game's designer, the intent is the same in both RAW7 and RAW8, but the wording is better in RAW8. The passage you quote has the following at the end: "You can choose a combat type that won’t produce a combat." That applies to subs choosing a box without any CPs and calling a "submarine combat" (because submarine combat literally means subs attacking CPs). i.e. there will be no combat no matter how many extra surprise points you spend, just like choosing naval air combat when there are no aircraft.

Ahha, you say, what about Brian Brian's quote: "If no convoy points are included (only possible if you spent surprise points to choose a submarine combat ~ see 11.5.7) then you fight on the ‘0’ ships row."?

I maintain that applies to choosing the zero box where there are CPs and then using surprise to target one of the escorts. By targeting an escort, you are "un-including" the CPs. Indeed if it qualifies as submarine combat you don't need to spend the 4 surprise (although in RAW7 you often have to use 4 surprise to prevent a naval air combat). But I can see that sentence contributing to why the rule gets misinterpreted. I wonder how many have played over the board and used surprise to force a sub combat on surface ships with no CPs but then counted all of the surface ships as the target profile instead of using the zero row - that is assuming everyone playing thought that was the rule in the first place.

I maintain that if you want to use your subs to attack enemy surface ships - in any box without the presence of CPs, - you must call a surface combat. And even the reduction in combat factors for the subs in surface combat is usually not as bad as being on the '0' row in a submarine combat, unless your prey is traveling with very little or no escort.

(RAW8 does not have that sentence about the '0' ships row because in RAW8, all the escorts in the zero box are also targets and you alternate results against CPs and escorts, but it is clearer about no combat without CPs.)

I really have yet to see this come up in MWiF, so it's possible MWiF is coded as you claim.

Edit: I see the thread started with a situation where a sub combat was called but little damage was done by the subs. Perhaps because the subs were on the '0' row? Maybe Pete could post a saved game with that situation as I'd be curious to see what MWiF does.

[brian brian]

I should have quoted two sentences there:

"If no convoy points are included (only possible if you spent surprise points to choose a submarine combat ~ see 11.5.7) then you fight on the ‘0’ ships row.

[SUB loss mechanics note snipped]

Losses inflicted by the SUB side can only be taken on convoys (unless someone spends 3 surprise points to inflict them on another target). If convoy points can take no further losses, ignore any remaining losses (unless you spend surprise points to select another target)."


At 3 surprise points for EACH combat result and only pulling those from the 0-1 targets row, choosing SUB combat without CPs is a very ineffective way to go - unless you want to save your SUBs from a stack of Battleships and do want to roll another pair of search dice. Choosing "Avoid Combat" with 4 surprise points does not give you that chance. Also, choosing No-CP Sub Combat can still be handy when the SUB (better with multiple SUBs) gets a really large surprise point differential with one really juicy target to pick (rare). This represents your tactical doctrine orders to your submarine captains - press home attacks against escorted capital ships, or just take low risk, low reward type opportunity chances.

Also, later in the war, a stack of SUBs can have a pretty decent surface factor total, somewhat in-between the values of Battleships and Heavy Cruisers. Keep in mind that the historical Commanders-in-Chief built A LOT of submarines, and lost a lot of them too.


[WiF8 note - I noticed that the "0-1" row still exists on the combat chart. I haven't walked through the naval combat mechanics yet though.]

[Centuur]

I don't get it (or perhaps it's the fact that I'm not a native English speaker here).

In our group, one could elect to include more boxes than the "zero" box in a submarine combat. If convoy points are present you get the "normal" result and can spend 3 surprise points to select an escort as target.

If there are no convoy points included, one can spend 4 surprise points to select a submarine combat. You than fight on the "0-1" ships row against the enemy and can spend 3 points to select a ship as target.

Consider this too for a moment: when only one or two enemy ships are included in the combat, fighting a submarine combat can be better compared to fighting a surface combat, due to the fact that the enemy fights back with ASW factors and not with surface factors. I fully expected that this was intended by the developers, since that was the way some ships were lost during WW II when they were returning to base on their own (or with a weak escort) and encountered enemy submarines...

[paulderynck]

I can see how picking more boxes than just a zero box with CPs in it could work as an interpretation of RAW7 rules, since there would then be CPs in the combat. I thought we were talking about choosing submarine combat against boxes with no CPs present.

But as you say, MWiF is coded per RAW7 (and RAW7 has more rules enigmas than RAW8).

Happy New Year.

[brian brian]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

I don't get it (or perhaps it's the fact that I'm not a native English speaker here).

In our group, one could elect to include more boxes than the "zero" box in a submarine combat. If convoy points are present you get the "normal" result and can spend 3 surprise points to select an escort as target.

If there are no convoy points included, one can spend 4 surprise points to select a submarine combat. You than fight on the "0-1" ships row against the enemy and can spend 3 points to select a ship as target.

You have it correct [ iirc ]. If only the SUB side has a successful search roll, it selects which enemy boxes to include - it is not even required to include the 0 box. But if it includes the 0 box and enemy CPs are there, the SUB side _can_ then choose to make it a Sub Combat. It would only be wise to add boxes other than the 0 box if the SUB side had enough surprise points to spend them to change a combat result from the Convoy Points to some other target the SUB wanted to hit, like a TRS, or maybe a previously Damaged ship or something. Enemy units outside the 0 box would not increase their target profile and thus the SUB's offensive combat results - but they would increase the ASW total to calculate results the SUB has to suffer.

Also, everyone playing World in Flames should always remember that it is not a tactical combat game. The air, naval and even land combat systems don't represent a single day of battle or single air raid, ever - they represent a week or more of combat activity. The counters don't fight one battle on one day and then go rest up for two months, waiting for their next turn in the war. The game combats are representational, not single-point situational, and the rather binary combat results are accumulated attrition for each side.


I think Centuur just moved into 2018 as I typed this one out ... Happy New Year everyone!

[PeteGarnett]

Happy New Year All.

So I should have selected the 4 box, where his fleet was, & then used 3 of my surprise points to select target for the surface combat. That would have allowed me a shot at one of his capital ships.

My subs would also have attacked with one less strength point each.

I think I understand now - thanks all.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

ORIGINAL: Centuur

I don't get it (or perhaps it's the fact that I'm not a native English speaker here).

In our group, one could elect to include more boxes than the "zero" box in a submarine combat. If convoy points are present you get the "normal" result and can spend 3 surprise points to select an escort as target.

If there are no convoy points included, one can spend 4 surprise points to select a submarine combat. You than fight on the "0-1" ships row against the enemy and can spend 3 points to select a ship as target.

You have it correct [ iirc ]. If only the SUB side has a successful search roll, it selects which enemy boxes to include - it is not even required to include the 0 box. But if it includes the 0 box and enemy CPs are there, the SUB side _can_ then choose to make it a Sub Combat. It would only be wise to add boxes other than the 0 box if the SUB side had enough surprise points to spend them to change a combat result from the Convoy Points to some other target the SUB wanted to hit, like a TRS, or maybe a previously Damaged ship or something. Enemy units outside the 0 box would not increase their target profile and thus the SUB's offensive combat results - but they would increase the ASW total to calculate results the SUB has to suffer.

Also, everyone playing World in Flames should always remember that it is not a tactical combat game. The air, naval and even land combat systems don't represent a single day of battle or single air raid, ever - they represent a week or more of combat activity. The counters don't fight one battle on one day and then go rest up for two months, waiting for their next turn in the war. The game combats are representational, not single-point situational, and the rather binary combat results are accumulated attrition for each side.


I think Centuur just moved into 2018 as I typed this one out ... Happy New Year everyone!

Considering that WiF has the capital ships in it (and not a "general" fleet counter) I don't agree totally with what you have written here. Naval battles didn't take longer than a day. And every time ships are found, I consider it to be a naval battle occurring in WiF. This battle could easily be a chance encouter with a SUB causing the loss of a capital ship without enough ASW present to prevent the SUB from attacking it...

Best wishes for the New Year, everyone...